|By Squeeman on Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 06:29 am:|
I found a continuity error in Planeshift, hence the title of this thread (DUH!).
The book keeps repeating that Dralnu is Lord on Urborg, or at least that his power stetches over the entire island and that he is most powerful (at least according to his bragging).
Yet in the Mirage storyline page on the official WotC website, it specifically states that Karvaek wanted to take over Jamuraa. He would have taken over Urborg but would only have been a heavy hitter among dozens of Urborgian entities. There are therefore many entities in Urborg battling for control. Dralnu would be included. Crovax' family would too. There are dozens of beings in Urborg that Dralnu would have to fight to gain the absolute power he claims to have and I doubt that he had the power to fight twenty other liches, necromancers, spirits, Stalkers, etc.
I am saying, basically, that they overrate Dralnu's control over Urborg.
|By Dirty Liar (Randomspammer) on Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 06:57 am:|
well, Mirage is prerevisonist history. Actual revision actually only began during Visions, and by then everything before was completely insignifecant. Crovax has no family (with the exception of Lord Windgrace? Some strange lovemaking) so thats pointless. Besides many of the probable heavy hitters in Jamuraa are demons and WOTC hates demons now.
-"Winters are cold in Drasnia too, and look at me. Are you sure your grandmother didnt have a dalliance with a bear?"-Silk to Barak
|By eidtelnvil on Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 09:08 am:|
Dralnu is a typical villain: he claims to have complete control over what he doesn't. I believe that was WotC's point. I wouldn't really call this a continuity error, just Dralnu trying to live up to something that he can only boast about.
|By Draco (Draco) on Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 12:45 pm:|
<COUGH!, COUGH!> Mirage is not pre-revisionism. The mirage storyline dictates that Kaervek wanted to take over Jamuraa because in his home of THE BURNING ISLES (Of which Urborg is not even the largest.) he would never be more than a pawn of the more powerfull entities there. Each of the Burning Isles has it's own supreme lord. After the death of the Windgrace bloodline in Weatherlight Dralnu rose to become the new leader of Urborg. He is still weak compared to such heavy hitters as Gwendlyn di Corci and Nevinyrral. (Who both at one time was the most powerful creature in Urborg.) The burning Isle's consist of most notably Urborg, Steel and Bogardan. And not even a planeswalker would like to mess with the elemental powers of Bogardan. Most of today's heavy hitters in the Burning Isles are of Djinni and Efreeti heritage. For example the lords of Bogardan are djinn's from the plane of Wildfire.
Draco (Phyrexian Enforcer, Librarian and Completed Dragon Engine.)
-Feed the Wyrm, Evolve or Die...
|By Satan's Angel (The_One) on Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 10:49 pm:|
Which bring us to a new question: How did Crovax came out from the lines of Lord Windgrace? That's sick!
"Argh! An american exchange student! Duck!"
|By Squeeman on Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 11:26 pm:|
They are not related you idiots. just because they are both from Urborg doesn't mean that they are related. It doesn't say anywhere that they are related. You guys assume too much. Lord Windgrace was alive at the time of Urza and Mishra. Crovax' only relatives were his brother, Jolav, and his father, who are now both dead. Anybody who thinks Crovax and Lord Windgrace are related is dumb.
And sticking to my point, I say again, that on the Mirage website, they refer to Karvaek as a heavy hitter among dozens for control of the Burning Isles. Dozens. There are not dozens of islands, or at least not dozens of ones worth conquering. If the book is not in the wrong, then it is the Magic website which talks about these 'dozens'. Or it is Jeff Lee who says that Karvaek is specifically Urborgan, but has been around the Isles and has power from all three.
NOTE: Jeff Lee also talks about these 'dozens'.
Also, if someone is a heavy hitter, that doesn't mean he was a pawn. He wasn't. It does not say that anywhere. It says he was incapable of conquest because there were others there as strong as he. This means that he is amongst the most powerful. Karvaek has pride, remember? He would not let himself be a pawn, a henchman.
I don't dispute your point that each island has a supreme lord. I'm just saying there was a goof-up somewhere.
|By Satan's Angel (The_One) on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 12:29 am:|
Haven't you read Rath and Storm?
Crovax was the last of the Windgrace family!
The death of his family made him Lord Windgrace! (This has nothing to do with the topic)
"Argh! An american exchange student! Duck!"
|By MagicKid (Pikachu_Killer) on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 01:14 am:|
Yes, well maybe these 'dozens' are all dead.
|By As Diabolical as Garland (Lihm_Dooz) on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 01:43 am:|
So if Crovax was the 'last' of the Windgrace family, then where'd this other guy come from? Guess they revised it.... They revised revision lol.
I never remember reading that Crovax held the title Lord Windgrace in Rath & Storm, but the last time I read it was a loooong time ago and they probably only mentioned it once so I probably forgot it. Anyone remember exactly what page that's on? I assumed it would be in Crovax's Tale, skimmed it and so now I'm reading the end of Crovax's Tale in R&S and...does Orim have a thing for Crovax? Omg I hope she doesn't anymore coz she's got Cho-Mamma and Crovax is a freaky Phyrexian vampire now.
|By Squeeman on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 03:49 am:|
The 'dozens' all suddenly dead for no particular reason? Yes, that would make sense now, as a typical WotC move.
I have just now checked Rath and Storm, rereading Crovax' Tale and the first Dark Room, and I have found no reference to him being Lord Windgrace. Could somebody reread it please, in case I made a mistake?
|By Nifallor Ruler of Kaironia on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 08:02 am:|
As Draco stated Urborg is only a little part of the Burning Isles.
But not viewing that point, Phyrexia has eradicated Crovax's family, right?? They might as well killed most of the spirits and beings in the swamps.
|By eidtelnvil on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 09:44 am:|
I re-read Rath and Storm a few weeks ago, and I don't remember anything about a Lord Windgrace title. Even so, that's not a legitamate ground to say they're related. Lord Windgrace is a national hero in Urborg. Crovax's family line could have taken that name to honor him.
|By Smilie on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 01:32 pm:|
Hi folks !
Two other approaches of solution :
1.) Crovax´ (cool name for a Raven Familiar in D&D, besides) family just has the same name as the Cat Warrior Windgrace Clan.
2.) Windgrace is a planeswalker (and that´s a fact), and planeswalkers can assume any shape. Maybe he simply prefers himself as cat warrior (and if you say that sounds mad, I´d prefer myself as a squirrel !).
|By Tiger on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 08:32 pm:|
Or maybe... *gasp*... Crovaxs family worshipped Lord Windgrace, and since hes pretty much a god, named themselves after him like the Serrans did. Wait, thats to easy an answer... we need to go off looking for cat warriors nailing humans.
|By MagicKid (Pikachu_Killer) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 05:42 am:|
Lord Windgrace is a planeswalker, so maybe he was assumed dead, what? let's say 3000 years ago? Then maybe Crovax was the last Windgrace only because they don't know about planeswalker Lord Windgrace (or something).
I hope that makes sense...
|By Ikit Claw (Ikit) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 07:45 am:|
Yeah, that does make sense.
And maybe that was why Crovax choose mirri as his firts victim because he thought she was Lord Windgrace (He thinks all cat folk look like each other) and wanted to get rid of him before he wouldtake his place as Windgrace boss.
Allright, this doesn't make much sense, but just an idea...
CROVAX ARDET OMNES RIDET
PERISTI CROVAX, PERISTI!
|By eidtelnvil on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 10:15 am:|
And maybe Crovax just prefers the taste of cat warrior meat, so he named himself after Windgrace and killed Mirri in an attempt to eat kitty burgers for a year. Much in the same way I will now cristen myself "Mr. Bacon." Let the world fear my wrath.
|By Draco (Draco) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 01:37 pm:|
Kitty Burger...Now with 50% more Cat Warrior meat...
|By Jordan on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 04:19 pm:|
I read Rath and Storm and nowhere in there is a reference to Crovax as Lord Windgrace. Maybe his family is somehow linked to his bloodline and uses it to honor themselves. After all, he is a planeswalker, and right after Urza became a planeswalker he wandered the planes for hundreds of years. Who knows what Windgrace would have done? He probably haD JUST LOST HIS ENTIRE family in the Argoth event.
|By Christopher Clause (Azreal) on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 07:20 pm:|
anyway, so Dralnu, could very well be the most powerful person in Urborg(but if Purraj is still alive, she'd kick his ass) or it could be just his gloating
Kaervek said that he was only one of many with massive power, and that to conquer all of them would be too difficult to do
the only person that has held complete dominion over Urborg that i've ever heard of was Gwendlyn Di Corci(god i love that card)
|By Ikit Claw (Ikit) on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 08:06 am:|
But isn't Crovax now the master of Urborg? I haven't read Planeshift yet, but I saw a falsh-movie on www.magicinvasion.com. There he has a temple on Urborg and reigns there. Or did I understood it wrong?
Crovax:Peris Squee, peris!
Squee: Hodie mihi, cras tibi.
Crovax: HAW HAW HAW! Cras mihi? Hodie ET cras tibi! Et post cras tibi, post post cras tibi, post post post cras tibi, post post post post cras tibi...
|By eidtelnvil on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 12:06 pm:|
It's implied at the end of the novel that Crovax is now the ruler of Urborg and much more. Urza and Gerrard are now apparently the faithful servant of the Ineffable, the Weatherlight is destroyed beyond repair (I hope, I hope), and there are now probably (Matt?) more Phyrexians on Dominaria than there are creatures with the ability to fight them (not counting kavu and other nonintelligent creatures).
|By Draco (Draco) on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 01:00 pm:|
Yeah, WE ROCK! and Purraj may very well still be alive...
|By Matthew Manley (Webmaster) on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 02:50 pm:|
There are approximately 35,000 battle-capable Dominarians for millions of Phyrexians. Even a dropout can see the Phyrexians outnumber them considerably (and boast superior fighting skills).
Webmaster at Phyrexia.com
|By Cloud_Strife on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 06:49 pm:|
How do you know stuff about Gwendolyn Di Corci?
|By Volrath on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 08:34 am:|
I think the stories about Gwendolyn were in either the old comic books or the pre-revisionist history.
As for the Windgrace matter, can't is just be that Crovax's ancestor married a cat person? It would explain his stupidity (the mixing genes go ugly)
|By eidtelnvil on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 10:56 am:|
35,000 vs. several million?
Blessed be the will of the Ineffable.
|By Jaya on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 04:08 pm:|
Anyways, Crovax is most likely a descendent from the same family as the planeswalker. Crovax came from a noble family, and Windgrace seems to have as well, or at least fights for noble causes. Windgrace, like Tevesh Szat, was most likely a human at one point. That would explain a lot. Crovax would be so distantly related, that it should not matter much. Besides, Windgrace fights for what Urborg once was, and Crovax fights to control not only Urborg, but Dominaria. Crovax could still turn on the Dark Lord, which may save Gerrard but would mean the death of the vampire lord. I doubt Urza will be coming out of that sphere to fight for the alliance, however. The Father of Machines has claimed that one.
-Jaya, "Like attracts like."
|By Matthew Manley (Webmaster) on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 08:24 pm:|
Plus the (planeswalker) Lord Windgrace-theory is supported during the Invasion chapter on the Nine Titans by him fighting with Barrin for Urborg (before they lost it).
Webmaster at Phyrexia.com
|By Ikit Claw (Ikit) on Friday, March 30, 2001 - 04:46 am:|
Well what I think is that the Cat People first ruled Urborg under the name of Lord Windgrace. It was not an Undead-pool yet. A group of nasty human conquorrers came and batteled the cat folk for control of Urborg. They won, and Lord Windgrace was killed. The victorious humans made a new, evil land of Urborg, but they took the name of the name dynasty that ruled Urborg for long (Windgrace) and made it their own name. The Windgrace-dynasty was simply phased further, onley people called 'Windgrace' where no longer cat warriors but humans, of wich crovax was last.
Eventually, when the last Cat-Windgrace was defeated and died the spark of the palneswalker ignited in him. He walked among the planes for a long time until he joined da Eight Titans (I know there where more but I can't count that high)
Just a theory
|By planeswalker on Friday, March 30, 2001 - 10:50 pm:|
in what time frame does your last cat-windgrace die in. In Planeshift Lord Windgrace remembers his home as the lush jungle it once was so he had to have died ages before even Nevinyyral ruled Urborg.
|By Ikit Claw (Ikit) on Saturday, March 31, 2001 - 06:51 am:|
Allright, let's say cat-Lord Windgrace died (ie became planeswlaker) some few hundred years after Bro's War. Long enough ago I'd say.
P.S: The cat-Windgrace remembers his home as a lush jungle it only strenghtens my theory. I mean, jungle and swamp are very close relatives.
|By Draco (Draco) on Saturday, March 31, 2001 - 04:52 pm:|
Nevinyrral ruled urborg before the brothers war...but it is possible that the cooling climate brought on by the antiquities war caused the djungles of Urborg to transform into swamps...
|By Squeeman on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 08:22 am:|
THEN WE HAVE ANOTHER CONTINUITY ERROR!
J.Robert King said that Urborg was turned into a swamp by the rising oceans brought on by the climax of the Brothers' War.
But Nevinyrral was ruler of a swampland Urborg well before Urza was alive.
|By Draco (Draco) on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 03:10 pm:|
Where does it say that Nevinyrral ruled a swampland Urborg. I have never heard of Urborg being a swamp before the Weatherlight set.
|By Lim-Deûs, Lim-Dûl's High Guard (Lim_Deus) on Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 11:51 pm:|
Well, the Urborg legendary land in Legends produced black mana, so everyone probably pretty much assumed it was all swampland. But then, from the Legends card, it looks more like Urborg is a single city surrounded by a lava lake (wtf? was the artist playing too much Super Mario Bros. or something? lol) or it was a VERY small island.
Of course, that could always be just be a small part of Urborg that it's showing the in the picture. Either way, the land has the name Urborg as if to encompass it all, so it all produces black mana.
|By Draco (Draco) on Friday, April 06, 2001 - 04:57 pm:|
So? The set was made before WotC had the R&D department continously scour the art of M:TG to make sure everthing fit. And besides it's called The Burning Isle's, isn't it? And there isn't a big leap from Hot Lava to black mana, If you get burnt by it, don't you become black in the affected area?
|By eidtelnvil on Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 11:36 am:|
Since when does black mana automatically mean that the land is a swamp? Also, the Legends era takes place between pre-Brothers' War all the way to probably the beginning of Mirage. In fact, the first book of the Legends cycle doesn't even take place until after the Floods Age.
|By P0s73r wh1l3 gh0s73r (Lim_D3us) on Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 02:05 pm:|
Since when does black mana automatically mean that the land is a swamp?
As far as I know, always lol. At least when black is all it produces.
And Draco, I was only pointing out an instance you asked for, they could easily ignore the fact that Urborg produces black mana in Legends since Legends is a set that takes itself from many parts in different time periods (somewhat of a rephrase of what eidtelnvil said). They'd simply say that card was from after it became a swamp and its not from Nevinyrral's time. Sort of a "revision" for cards. In terms of sets, Legends is definitely before Weatherlight, in terms of time in the story, it still is by a tiny bit. That doesn't mean WotC couldn't use its "revising" ability to change something around there. But I doubt WotC would waste their time revising all that for a detail that took up less than a paragraph in Planeshift.
I'd assume that that whole thing was an error in Planeshift, because Nevinyrral is a necromancer and Urborg being a swamp while he was there would be more convenient then him being there before it was one. Who knows, maybe they could make some kind of story where he's the one responsible for making it one or something, but I wouldn't trust one tiny tidbit in Planeshift that much with all the continuity errors and revisions there are in the story.
Since when does black mana automatically mean that the land is a swamp?
|By Draco (Draco) on Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 02:59 pm:|
The answer lies in the disk...
|By P0s73r wh1l3 gh0s73r (Lim_D3us) on Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 04:30 pm:|
Well then I guess we'll never know since I don't think we'd want to go in there to find out now would we lol.
Seriously though, now that I think about it I do think that the Disk would be able to screw up Urborg enough to turn it into what it is today.
|By JesterGoblin on Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 08:25 pm:|
The disk doesn't destroy lands, right?
I mean, doesn't it only bury creatures, artifacts and enchantments?
So, it could alter Urborg, unless Urborg was never a jungle and its always been a swamp that was covered by an encantment...
maybe i'm just a moron too
|By As Diabolical as Garland (Lihm_Dooz) on Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 08:36 pm:|
But that's trying to apply it directly from what the card does. As far as storyline goes it could just devastate everything, it doesn't have to do exactly what it does in the sets in the story.
|By EPA Supporter (Randomspammer) on Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 08:14 am:|
Well look at Golgothian Sylex. I think that it should have destroyed everything.
"The soul of magic is change"
|By Draco (Draco) on Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 02:26 pm:|
Well, well, well, now it seems we're getting somewhere...
|By JGdaPlaneswalker (Jestergoblin) on Wednesday, April 18, 2001 - 09:07 pm:|
Squee's ability is that of one in the story line. He keeps coming back. Same for Greven, when he comes, some one dies. So why cant the disk be taken seriously??? Also look at Siasy, she recruted the oddist group of people to work on the weatherlight, and she can tap to search for a legend. And the artifact Preadator, it destroys any flying creature, so if u use karn to animate your opponents weatherlight, give it flying with your predator, and animate YOUR predator and give it flying, it would kill weatherlight. So many legendary cards do what they do in the story line, even though the disk isn't a legend, it could be considered one under todays circumstances.
|By Carfre on Wednesday, April 18, 2001 - 09:26 pm:|
The animate Weatherlight and shoot it down with Predator thing is a bit far-fetched. THe others are good, but when have you ever seen Karn turn an artifact into an artifact creature in the story?> SOmetimes they do exactly the same thing it seems they should do from the story and sometimes they don't
|By JGdaPlaneswalker (Jestergoblin) on Wednesday, April 18, 2001 - 10:08 pm:|
Maybe Karns been smoking something. I mean he's remembering ALL this stuff that happened along time ago. Also, the same thing goes for Multani, his powers change over time...
|By Jordan Planeswalker on Wednesday, May 30, 2001 - 07:00 pm:|
Theory: Cat People ruled Urborg. Urborg sinks when sylex go boom. Sylex blast awakens windgrace's SPARK.