By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 12:27 am:| By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 12:27 am: |
We all know that the colors of magic are supposed to be equal in power. Sure, as players we hear complaints about blue. But in theory, they're supposed to be equal.
But this isn't about card power. It's about flavor. In the imaginary multiverse of Magic, the colors are once again considered equal. But in your opinion - you being a person with an imagination (this point is not up for debate) - what color of magic is most practical to wield if one is a mortal wizard somewhere in the Magic multiverse? Do you consider one to be more powerful than another (even though theoretically they are equal?
We all know that there are people out there who do think so. Take Phyrexia's (onetime) own Xion, for one. So which is it?
| By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 12:42 am: |
Also, take the works of Scott McGough. Though he never overtly says it and gives credit to all the colors, one gets the impression that in his opinion, black magic trumps all.
| By Lord Priest (Xdritex) on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 03:42 am: |
I'm inclined to agree with black being the top all.
It's able to keep you around longer, both in life, and past/through death. It can be used the same for your subjects/minions/followers/etc.
| By MORT (Ashtok) on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 04:03 am: |
Huh. It all depends on individuals.
Blue might be very powerful because its manipulative color. But it sometimes can't do anything against brutal force of red/green.
I think that every color has its strong and weak sides, every one can easily win some colors, but fail to another. But again, it all depends on the individual and his power.
The best combination is to be equally powerful in all colors, like Tysir.
Personally, if I'd have to choose one for myself, I'd wuld choose probably green. Because life is practically everywhere, and I'd be able to use it somehow, both to defend myself and attack if needed.
(Besides, I live in the forest ya'know)
| By Puschkin (Puschkin) on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 06:04 am: |
Hm. The thing is that card wise each colour ALONE will have lots of problems. And if the opponent knows what the opponent will play ... red can't get rid of enchantments for example, ever played mono red against a CoP:Red? I am not sure how this would transfer to our flavour and imaginary universe. "what color of magic is most practical to wield if one is a mortal wizard somewhere in the Magic multiverse?" which would mean he could only choose ONE colour. Both green and white can handle ALL kinds of spells, but does that mean they are the best?
WHITE:
I would say that white is just too weak. Yeah you are pretty safe, can heal and protect yourself, but as we all know, not ad infinitum. White does not have any real offensive but the weenie rush. In our imainary world whis would mean that opponents would know how to beat white mages because they are all using the same spells. If colour mixes would be allowed (just 2 would be enough) I'd say white would be the best support colour. But since we have to choose just one, I would not go with white.
RED:
For me, red would be out, too. For the same reasons as white, just in the opposite direction: Too much offense and too less defense. Duels would be short and dangerous, my opponents would not have much time to think. But I would be open to some traps that I cannot get rid of. Plus, I guess, sooner or later red mages would kill themselves in a firey infernal accident. It's just not my style and compareable to a gunslinging cowboy that is the hot shot for a short while.
BLACK:
Black offers the greates power, hands down. It shares the vulerabilities of red but has way more tools to work around problems. Black in Magic is much like the dark side of the force in Star Wars or the One Ring in LotR: It offers much power and it offers it fast but at a price. I would NOT choose black. Let's forget about the fact that I would have to deal with zombies and other nasty stuff that just make you puke. It's more about the nature of black. When I said a red mage would prolly kill himself sooner or later with a misplaced rain of fire or something kike that, a black mage would live an even more dangerous life:
He has to deal with all kinds of demons and other dangerous creatures that might not be so pleased once they escaped slavery. He is unleashing all kinds of plagues and diseases that might evetually hit himself. He would have to do alot of nasty things to himself to wield truly great power (think of all the cards like Lich). But even if he survived all of this, he would slowly get mad and insane. you could even go so far to say you must be mad and insane in the first place to become a black mage ...
GREEN & BLUE:
Leaves us to blue and green. Personally I do think that blue is stronger. Blue is not only the "true" colour of mages (everything truly "magic" like invisibility, teleports and counterspells is blue). It just has the ablity to handle about any situation there yould ever be. Not necesarily via destruction, mind you. But as we all know, blue can counter, bounce, steal, corrupt, alter, phase, tax and manipulate the living sh1t out of everything! Blue doesn't even need a real offense because it can turn about any threat against it's wielder.
HOWEVER, all of this needs an absolutely cunning mind and inhuman alertness. Even though there might be a solution for about everything in your reportoir doesn't mean you can pull it off or even think about it fast enough to save your a$$. You could not even practice this except for real duels ... so, although I do think that blue is the most suitable one for our question, I would not use it myself, because I would not be able to pull off all the stunts fast enough. Thinking and solving complex puzzles may be my thing but it's totally different to do so while facing death. I am not the type of guy who is good at thinking under pressure (that's why I am more into turn based games instead of real time ones).
And that leaves us to green. While green doesn't provide anything notably special it just does not have any of those real hard drawbacks like the other colours do. It's a solid colour that can be aggressive or defensive, it has a broad range of spells so that nobody would be able to prepare for me, I could handle all kinds of things but would not run the risk of frying myself and would not have to sell my soul. Maybe I could even hope that my opponents would underestimate me. But in the end, nature will be prevail.
So I would choose green. I would choose green through analysis, though, not via my heart and not via instinct.
| By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 12:55 pm: |
I wouldn't knock white out so easily. It actually has a decent deal of insta-kill spells (in the style of Radiant's Judgment), and other effects like in Holy Light, where the "impure" or "evil" are slain or weakened. This is also seen in the abilities of the geographically-oriented white paladins.
In terms of a white wizard using such spells and effects, killing could be considered every bit as brutal and ruthless as black and red.
White also has brainwashing spells, such as Swords to Plowshares and Path of Peace and Pacifism (and Brainwash, I guess) where an enemy's desire to fight is crushed.
Furthermore, some spells that seem inoffensive in card mechanics actually translate into damage dealing (such as Lance, which implies someone throwing a lance).
I'm not necessarily voting white, but I'm responding to Puschkin. Just providing a little food for thought.
| By Puschkin (Puschkin) on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 05:25 pm: |
Hm, let's see ...
Holy Light? Crovax the Cursed is a walking (actually flying) Holy Light vs all nonblacks PLUS a Bad Moon thrown in!
Northern Paladin? Royal Assassin, Tracker, Ovinomancer, Vampiric Dragon, Shauku ... all of them aren't dependant on colour.
White's soft and peaceful "brainwashing" methods (something that probably won't last forever!) vs Lobotomy, Amnesia, Extract, Mind Bomb and all the red mass psychology effects from Impatience to Anarchy ...
Lances? Come on, I didn't say white doesn't even have weapons ... I just said that white has the weakest offense of all colours and that said offense is limited to armies of small soldiers with ordinary weapons plus their religion. And that it is very easy to prepare for that if you want to beat a white mage. Whereas you'll never know what you will be put against if you are facing a blue, green or black mage.
| By The Almighty (Mr_Dooples) on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 12:29 am: |
Ok, depends on the situations.
Mages on a Battlefield:
**Red- We all see that red is at home here. Fireballs, lightning, flames and explosions of all sorts. Yay! Red mages love to sit behind the advancing soldiers and hurtle spell after spell into the fray, however they do tend to kill alot of thier own troops with thier recklessness.
**White- Clerics and Priests. Every army loves them. (except goblins and zombies) A well places enchantment can cause that fireball to do nothing more than singe the grass. Fighting demons or undead? No problem, banish and dispell them all. Oh no, the General is wounded! Not anymore, god we love white magic!
**Black- Just being able to raise an army from the mud is good enough for me. Not to mention the more you kill, the bigger your army.
**Green- Not exactly at home on the battlefield. Green magic (when in battle) is almost ALWAYS seen on the defending end of a battle. Other than an enchantment or two and making vines and thorns attack the enemy, I can't think of much for Green.
**Blue- Not at home on a battlefield. Blue wizards (imho) tend to stay out of large scale battles due to thier spell sets. In a one on one duel, a blue wizard can easily lock down his opponent, however, with 10,000 opponents, all a blue mage could do is counter a fireball or turn someone to ice.
Most useful color on the battlefield. WHITE/RED split.
Mage vs Mage Duel:
**Red- Again with the lightning and the fire. If a red mage unloads his arsenal upon a single target, that target better have something up his sleve or he's toast.
**White- I doubt many white mages duel. (except for Gandalf) Lets see, a white mage in a duel would probably cast a few enchantments and then pull out a mace and start smashing.
**Black- "I just ate your soul, good game"
**Green- As with white, I don't think many green mages duel very often. I mean really, what could they do? Use giant strength and go hulk on thier asses? Hrmm, doesnt sound bad.
**Blue- Pretty much the epitome of the dueling mage. Cast something at him, he throws it back in your face, that is if he even allowed it at all. Then he'll just drain all your spells and ping you to death. TIM FOR THE WIN!
Most useful color in a Mage vs Mage duel. BLUE.
Mages during peace time:
**Red- Peace time? What's that?
**White- They pray and stuff. With no battle there aren't many wounds to heal.
**Black- They end up getting killed by the demon they just summoned.
**Green- They are one with the land. They tend the land and watch over the people who inhabit it.
**Blue- They study and learn stuff. BOOOOORING!
The most useful color during peacetime. GREEN!
Mages planning world domination:
**Red- Red mages usually don't think on that grand of a scale. They are satisfied with thier small kingdom in the mountains, so long as they have enough goblin slaves to use as fireball fodder.
**White- Usually ends up being some holier than thou angel whos beliefs ends up putting her on a killing spree to deliever this world from evil.
**Black- OH YEAH! Now we're talking. Black mages tend to raise armies upon armies of undead/demons/artifact monsters to conquer the world. First the usually spread some sort of plague or disease to cripple everyone, then they invade. YAY!
**Green- Usually content with thier forest. Sometimes though, will uproot massive trees in order to fight dragons. (only happened once or twice I believe)
**Blue- Usually some crazed mage who just flipped his lid. Blue mages usually control a variety of golems, constructs, and other artifact creatures. Can't recall many blue mages wanting to take over the world though.
Most useful color for Mages planning world domination. BLACK!
| By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 03:24 am: |
I'm not sure that summoning legends should strictly count. Similarly, in what instances you you take a spell effect literally, and when do you consider it more closely linked to a card effect (i.e. Traumatize)?
However, I'll defend white a bit more. The main offensive technique of green and red is practically useless against white once it busts out its protection and prevention. Green has enchantment removal, but white has good retrieval. And even if green takes out the CoP and attacks with a big, bad creature, white can match it with a weenie and something along the lines of Righteousness or Gallantry. Red has land destruction, which could be useful against white.
But when worst comes to worst, white has removal effects like Hand of Justice- it's the best color at more or less literally saying "You don't exist anymore. Because I say so." And white tends to be the color that has the heavy seige weaponry on its side.
Blue, however, can match white spell for spell with counterspells and boomerang-type bouncing. And black can sneak past protections using mind-affecting spells like Mind Twist and similar.
In terms of duels, red actually has some nifty ways of fighting off blue. Blue may have a bit of direct damage, but red has a few counterspells! And not even just the red blasts, but also fun stuff like Molten Influence and Mage's Contest. I figure those can be taken pretty much as they are on their card text.
| By The Almighty (Mr_Dooples) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 10:05 am: |
See, I wasn't exactly factoring in creatures (which was bad on my part hence rendering green almost useless)
Also in litteral terms, would land D consist of robbing another mage of stored mana? Or quite litterally causing a sinkhole/stone rain to blow something up?
Looking on it now, I believe red has one of the best spells for a duel. Browbeat. Allowing the red mage to either fill his mind with even more spells, or forcing his opponent to endure pain and damage just to prevent it.
| By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 10:54 am: |
I would guess that land destruction would be robbing another mage of mana resources, but not something he or she has already drawn into his/her mana pool (you can't counter a spell with land destruction, for instance).
| By The Almighty (Mr_Dooples) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 11:58 am: |
So land D is more about killing your opponents mana reserves. Interesting. This adds another aspect to the duel. Now not only can blue temporarily drain your mana reserves (if only for a second) but red can permenently destroy any backups.
Seems to me a red/blue control mage would whoop some asses. Not mana for you, then I hit you with a 20pt fireball to the grill!
| By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 12:06 pm: |
Of course, stone rain and sinkholes would also have a more direct and practical ass-kicking use. Seriously, if a tile falls off a low roof and hits your head, you can die or suffer permanent damage. Thousands of stones falling from much higher?
| By a1withnoname (A1withnoname) on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 11:32 am: |
If you're planning on holing up in a fortress for a while, I would say Black-Green is the way to go. Look at the Golgari: You have control over life and death, and you've got stuff like Thruls, and stuff like Saprolings. I suppose theoretically you could run into problems of being overrun, but your overwhelming amount of regenerating and regrowing minions is a decent advantage.
| By The Almighty (Mr_Dooples) on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 04:15 pm: |
However, being holed up in a fortress would SUCK against white/red. They have siege weapons and fire. Plus if you try to counter attack, they have enough enchantments to protect themselves. I've ALWAYS thought the white/red combination was the best. You have enough firepower to kill anything and enough protective enchantments/spells to stay alive.
| By Dark Lord (Apprentice) on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 12:13 am: |
i think white would be the best for its global spells. Bedides white can do anything to prevent something except for just saying "no". Garfield himself once said that white was the best color (but I think that was only after 2 sets had been out). White can balance just about anything out, and is quick enough to get the jump on just about any opponent. Plus it has more staying power then other weenie rush techniques.
-Apprentice
| By a1withnoname (A1withnoname) on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 10:27 am: |
Thats true, thats true. I can just imagine all my saproling-thrull hybrids just getting burned in a single massive cataclism, and then someone Armageddoning the rest of my fortress.
Red-White would actually be my second choice, for those same reasons. Then probably red-blue actually. The allied pairs just generally seem to be weakened by their similarities, in my opinion, and otherwise... well, white-black just seems like it wouldn't be particularly fun, and blue-green seems like it just wouldn't work out very well. Both those combinations seem like they would end up with your minions beating the crap out of each other.
| By Dark Lord (Apprentice) on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 12:02 pm: |
And white can resurrect, too!
| By Puschkin (Puschkin) on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 04:26 pm: |
Hey - there is no need to defend white the way you do. Of course all colours do have strong spells. And since we are talking about something highly relative and speculative (transferring the card spells we know into an imaginary "real" world) we could argue about anything and everything we wanted. We could easily find arguments for each colour to be the best in this and that.
All I said is that, of all colours, white would probably the colour that would be suited less to gain global domination, to reign supreme in duels and to master all other things that plainswalkers do. And Dooples and me are the only ones so far to make a choice - I dare every one of you to make their own analysis! Preferably one that has a top dog and a scoundrel as the result. I mean, one of the five colours WILL have the last place. If you guys think that this colour isn't white, I ask you, which colour is it then?
| By Puschkin (Puschkin) on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 04:29 pm: |
BTW, green can resurrect, too (Reincarnation)! ;)
| By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 05:10 pm: |
White has the distinction of being the weakest at mana acceleration and boosting. That IS a definite downside in a theoretical wizards' duel. Does white have ANY ways of getting mana outside of lands and artifacts? Black and green are good, of course, and red has been catching up, whereas blue has its share of tricks.
Birds, elves, and trees don't count, being basically green and all.
| By MORT (Ashtok) on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 05:10 pm: |
More a storyline approach (read The Gathering Dark): every color is capable of the same spells, however the amount of mana ill (and they can slightly differ, mainly in visual terms).
It's really hard to say which color would be the most powerful/useful for the real wizard in the real life and in battle. It depends on individuals and actual spells they know. Or their imagination in spellshaping.
| By a1withnoname (A1withnoname) on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 11:15 am: |
Well, I think unless paired with another color Red might come in last, simply because its disorganized and relies on an early advantage. The other colors could either outlast, outstomp, outthink, or out-uh-zombify red.
Red seems to be generally used as aid to other colors, anyway. Red was used on Rath, but as a booster to the black mana constructs of Phyrexia. There was red mana in Yavamaya, but that was kind of a symbiotic thing with green. Even Kahmal, the origional Mr. Smash, transfered from red to green.
| By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 03:08 pm: |
Of course, Kamahl then unofficially transferred BACK to red and Smashed (TM) some more.
| By a1withnoname (A1withnoname) on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 08:55 pm: |
Heh, honestly wouldn't know, having pretty much given up on that cycle early on... [Although Torment was quite fun.]
| By MORT (Ashtok) on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 08:35 am: |
Ugh, correction for my last post:
Quote:More a storyline approach (read The Gathering Dark): every color is capable of the same spells, however the amount of mana and mental processes will differ (and these spells can slightly differ, mainly in visual terms).
| By a1withnoname (A1withnoname) on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 05:25 pm: |
I suppose you could say that although all colors have the same spells available, they generally choose specific types because of how they naturally think. A red mage just probably won't think generally to toss out a circle of protection type thing.
| By The Almighty (Mr_Dooples) on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 10:55 pm: |
I'm thinking it's meaning something more along the lines of every color has spells that do the same things, just go about them differently.
Pump:
Blue - Unnatural Mutation
Black - Unholy Strength
White - Holy Strength
Red - Bloodlust
Green - Giant Growth
Mana acceleration:
Green - Elves/Bird/wild growth/land fetchers
White - Tand Lax
Black - Dark Rit/sac creatures
Blue - artifacts
Red - Coal Golem?
Direct Damage:
Red - Everything
Blue - Psionic Blast
Green - Hurrican
Black - Drain Life
White - No Idea
Creature removal:
White - STP
Black - Terror/plague/edict/etc
Red - Burn
Blue - Bounce/counterspell
Green - Desert Twister
The list goes on.
| By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 11:47 am: |
Red has plenty of mana acceleration these days, around about since Onslaught. It's basically stolen black's mana acceleration, and made it a bit worse so that R&D don't have to carry the burden of color-shifting Dark Ritual. Most of them are sorceries or require dumb preconditions, like having lots of goblins in play (stupid Onslaught tribal blah), or sacrificing permanents. Then, there are some like Seething Song which I imagine would be lots of fun to abuse with plenty of Ruby Medallions.
Black's final non-artifact bid at mana acceleration, as far as I'm aware, was Cabal Ritual.
Songs of the Damned was always bad ass.
| By a1withnoname (A1withnoname) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 10:09 am: |
White has direct damage to attacking creatures. So it has sort of defensive direct damage.
Black still has some lands lying around that mana accelerate nicely. But the only black mana acceleration I can think of being recent is Cabal Ritual and Urborg Toad...
| By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 04:15 pm: |
Which, by virtue of being about 6 years old, are not new.
| By Puschkin (Puschkin) on Monday, July 16, 2007 - 05:12 pm: |
Basal Sliver, Vesper Ghoul and Magus of the Coffers are pretty new.
| By a1withnoname (A1withnoname) on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 09:35 am: |
Thats true. So, they actually do have a kind of mana-acceleration, but its dependant upon sacrifice rather than red's simple bursting effects.
Something I found interresting while reading Guildpact was the way guilds seemed to have far more animosity towards other guilds that shared a single color than the ones that shared no colors at all. Obviously, thats not an across the board thing, but that seemed to be a general sentiment.
| By Nathan (N810) on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 02:14 pm: |
origionaly reds mana exceleration was reckless and
widespread as seen in mana flare and gauntlet of might. this falls in perectly with reds tendency to shoot first and ask questions later. Generaly reds spell tend to backfire and mana burn himself in the process, but completely incenerating his opponent.
| By a1withnoname (A1withnoname) on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 10:44 am: |
Something quite fun to watch when you're fighting 6 other planeswalkers: two of them going down in flames. Gotta love it. I suppose in that way, if you're planning on betraying them anyway, the best person to have on your side in a multi-person planeswalker fight would be a pyromancer. Of course, you should probably stay as far away from them as possible...
| By T.H.E.M. (Tsabos_Boyfiend) on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 07:25 am: |
I'd rather tell each of them that each other is a greater threat than I am until each decides to eliminate each other than me and I just float and watch them fight, often throwing confusing spells in to make things more muddier and fun.
If Laquatus did things right, he would've won.
Along that note then, I propose a fancily confusing game. People choose two colors that aligns with their personal attitudes (explanation of course) and try thwacking (and protecting) each other using their own creative spells that would most likely align itself through the persons personality colors. This could be a test on how and what kind of creativity a person has.
Of course this would be on another thread and sphere all together.
| By a1withnoname (A1withnoname) on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 10:41 am: |
I could get into that!
[huh, you're so blue]
I'll do that if anyone else is interrested!
| By T.H.E.M. (Tsabos_Boyfiend) on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 11:47 am: |
aside from me, of course.
Why thank you. My secondary color would be black.
| By a1withnoname (A1withnoname) on Saturday, August 04, 2007 - 01:37 pm: |
I figured it probably was.
Wish someone else was interrested besides us...
| By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 04:59 am: |
I just have to resurrect this thread to make a very important point.
Blue is the color of both pirates and ninjas. How can any other color stand a chance?
| By Homelands Bookie (Psycho) on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 09:48 am: |
I thought it was a long known fact that Island was the best card in Magic...
| By The Almighty (Mr_Dooples) on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 12:31 am: |
See, Blue can't be the best simply b/c blue IS the color of both Pirates and Ninjas.. The enteral struggle between the two holds the oolor back from domination! How can it be the bestestestets ever when it constantly tried to destroy it's other half!
| By a1withnoname (A1withnoname) on Saturday, September 01, 2007 - 10:43 am: |
Thus, Red, the color of Vikings, wins while the other two are occupied fighting each other.
| By T.H.E.M. (Tsabos_Boyfiend) on Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 11:15 am: |
Bleh. A priest calls down the Wrath of God thereby starting an Armageddon and destroying Vikings, feuding pirates and ninjas, and what ever black things lurking, and the priest itself thereby wiping everything clean. A blank slate ready to start anew and be formed.
Tabula rasa... Blue philosophy.
Blue wins.