By Ineffable's Son (Eidtelnvil) on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 04:29 pm:

Just copied/pasted from the WotC forums:

Okay, just finished the book last night. I'm not going to be using spoiler tags, because there's a spoiler tag for this thread. If you don't want Lorwyn spoilers, you shouldn't even be looking in this thread to start with.

That being said, yes, there will be spoilers in this post.

This book sucked. I know I could be more eloquent, but I can't think of a word that describes how bad this book is beyond the word "sucked." Maybe I have a limited vocabulary, or maybe ... well, maybe it just sucked.

First off, this is the most vanilla fantasy I've ever read. There are clear cut good guys and clear cut bad guys. The one "plot twist" in the book comes when Brigid turns bad. But how could you consider this a plot twist when Brigid explains her motivations prior to doing her bad deed. I'm not joking. She provides no sinister motivations prior to the chapter where she decides to turn evil. Then, rather than having that chapter focus on Rhys and his confusion about what's going on and who's lying to who, it explains in the first page of the chapter that Brigid is going to betray them.

Brigid: "I'm going to try to kill either Ashling or Rhys."
Rhys: "Wow, Ashling is hurt."
Brigid: "Ha! I betrayed you!"

This is writing at its finest.

Next up is the horrible characterizations. Out of all 300 pages of this book, there was only one character I honestly ever gave a rat's ass about: Maralen. The only interesting thing about this entire sordid novel is the mystery surrounding Maralen. Who is she? Just how powerful is she? Who or what is controlling her? That's mildly entertaining.

What isn't entertaining is, unfortunately, everything else. The characters are so completely one-dimensional that by the first page of reading about them you pretty much understand everything you need to know about them. There's nothing interesting whatsoever about a single character. Rhys has studied under Colfenor and is now being hunted. That's all you need to know about Rhys. Brigid is a kithkin hero. That's all you need to know about Brigid. Ashling is a wandering pilgrim. That's all you need to know about Ashling. They don't develop whatsoever in any way, shape, or fashion throughout the entire novel. They begin life as stark, apparent characters, and by the end of the book they have become stark, apparent characters.

Also, what is their motivation? Ashling and Brigid pal around with Rhys because ... well, they feel like it I suppose. Very abstract motivations tie them together, and when they complete their pissant goal, they just decide to stick together for another pissant goal. And I found myself struggling to care. It is impossible to put yourself into these characters' POV, because they don't particularly have a POV. They are vanilla in the extreme.

And now, for those of you who've read the novel, we get to my least favorite portion of any literary work of fiction: bad comedic relief. The faeries are not funny. At all. I know that they are supposed to be a nuisance, and I feel that this may be the one point where the writers actually put forth some effort. The faeries are indeed a nuisance, but they're just as big a nuisance for the reader. They are not entertaining. Whatsoever. They're certainly not Sash and Waistcoat bad, but they're definately not on a par with Squee. I still say that the owl that went "Meep" was the best comedic relief in all the entirety of the MtG novels. I'm of the opinion that less is more, but evidently McGough and Herndon don't share that opinion. They were incredibly annoying. Apparently the writers realized that by the end of the book, because they decided to make them stop bickering towards the last quarter. They could've been taken out of the novel entiretly, and honestly nothing would've changed.

Come to think of it, Ashling could've been taken out of the novel and nothing would have changed. It's that great of a book.

Last of all, I've got to gripe at the writers. McGough's books are usually good, but he's apparently taken the route of J. Robert King. His books used to be full of dark humor, gallows humor, and characters I could give a toss about. Not so here. And Herndon? Herndon was the one saving grace with the whole Mirrodin Cycle, and his first Ravnica Cycle book was a very innovative take on fantasy with its fantasy/crime-noir feel. This just feels like Vance Moore wrote the book and slapped McGough's and Herndon's name on it at the last second. McGough apparently doesn't work well with others. His recent Time Spiral Cycle was horrible, and this just doesn't look too much more inspired. These are both really talented writers, I just don't know what the hell happened this time around.

So for those of you looking for a good weekend read, look elsewhere. For those of you, like me, who are just reading this book because you've read all the others and have a lot of time invested in them, read it in a hurry and then go wash your hands.

It's bad. Is it The Darksteel Eye bad? Probably not. Is it Onslaught Cycle bad? Definately not. Is it Prophecy bad? Yeah, it's Prophecy bad.

By Captain Oats (Jestergoblin) on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 09:24 pm:

Oh boy!

Prophecy bad? I doubt I'll even finish it. I skimmed Prophecy and only read the parts relating to Barrin.

By Ineffable's Son (Eidtelnvil) on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 03:46 pm:

Normally you wouldn't be able to do that and get the general gist of the story. But for Prophecy, that was certainly possible. It was some book, huh?

But at least it had Barrin, Rayne, and Teferi, three people I could actually be convinced to care about. This one had one, Maralen, and I'm really only interested in her to find out her thinly-veiled secret.

By T.H.E.M. (Tsabos_Boyfiend) on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 11:55 am:

Was Darksteel Eye bad? I thought it as the best in the mirrodin cycle. And I like J Robert King's style in the Invasion cycle and Scourge.

But with the way Lorwyn was described, I'll just skip it like I did with Kamigawa.

By Captain Oats (Jestergoblin) on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 01:26 am:

My copy arrived today.

I'll post my comments as they come...

By Homelands Bookie (Psycho) on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 09:07 am:

I haven't read this thread in fear for spoilers, but the Kamigawa trilogy was quite good, and I suggest to Tsabo's Boyfriend to go read it anyways. Go on, you won't be sorry.

By Captain Oats (Jestergoblin) on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 12:10 am:

OH GOD THERE'S A GLOSSARY IN THE BACK

By Ineffable's Son (Eidtelnvil) on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 04:42 pm:

Yeah, they really pulled out all the stops on this one. :-P

By Captain Oats (Jestergoblin) on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 07:21 pm:

I read the first chapter.

This is awful, not prophecy awful. Yet.

By Wicked Darkman (Wickeddarkman) on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 06:13 am:

I liked it!

Most of the time I read fantasy I read it to get inspiration!

And at some levels it was a very inspiring book!

I loved the small insigth on watercontrol offered by Sygg and his apprentice (Whom we never heard what happened to. Both merfolks were knocked out, but only Sygg returned?)

The elven superiority concept has been seen before but this one was better because of it's extremecy. (I hated the hidden ugly society idea, elves wouldn't be likely to be fooled by facial illusions, and by the way, why did they all get their face smashed! It could have been wounds that were easily concealable, but no! Had to be facial!)

The vinebreed concept was good!

The Fae were okay in my opp! Lame humour, and nastyness. I think however that they should have been more magically active! Faeries not casting nasty curses or weird spells all the time are a bit flat!

Selfish treefolk concept was bad! Brigid's turnover was just as bad, and Teeg was out of his GW character.

Most of the book the characters acted out of character! An elite elf fallen from grace would have been truly crushed, even suicidal (Especially in a society KILLING ugly beings) And so on. Throughout the book only two characters remain "in character". Sygg and Ashling. Sygg follows the gold (and a little of his heart perhaps) Ashling follows her "Path"

My overall oppinion of the book is nice, with some great ideas, but to much is just "Factory" litterature! It is readable enough for a die hard RPG gamemaster like me, but probably not to anyone being introduced to the genre!!!

By Ineffable's Son (Eidtelnvil) on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 03:27 pm:

Who is this guy and why is he on my forum! I like pie! It's kind of fun to use exclamation marks after every sentence!

Squeeman, have you read it yet! Are you going to!

The water in the Marshal Islands kind of smells like bread!!!

By Captain Oats (Jestergoblin) on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 05:16 pm:

Whoa whoa whoa. "My forum?" You left us Eid! In case you need reminding, check out my profile on the site and favorite quote.

By Ineffable's Son (Eidtelnvil) on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 08:12 pm:

... But it is stagnant to the being comical. And most of the people on the forum in those days were arseholes. Can I say arseholes?

I seem to remember leaving a good word for you though, JG. Anyway, Brady occupies all my hatred lately, so I can't really rant the way I used to.

Would it help if I make a friendship pin?

By Captain Oats (Jestergoblin) on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 09:31 pm:

Oh, it's hilariously comical.

Nah, I don't need a pin.

By Ineffable's Son (Eidtelnvil) on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 10:51 pm:

Are you sure? I already made it. I glued little hearts to it, too. And I used sparkly glue.

By Wicked Darkman (Wickeddarkman) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 05:21 am:

EIDTELNVIL: ??? !!! ??!! ARRGGHH !!! ...

I'm a person of drama!

And you sir are old blood!!!

Now evolve a bit and post at some of the other spheres a bit. There is a nice political discussion that may need some more historical preferences. Go play there!!!

I liked the book and there's nothing you can do about it, :P

By Puschkin (Puschkin) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 08:33 am:

Eid, you shouldn't pick on WD because he is THE addition to this forum. Just browse for his posts, projects and whatnots in the various spheres and you'll know that you picked on the wrong one. In fact, one more year and more people will remember WD and his wicked, wicked posts than Eidtelnvil. Your glorious past is ... well past.

By Puschkin (Puschkin) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 08:34 am:

Oh, damn, I screwed up, should have ended that last sentence with at least 3 exclamation marks!!!

By Homelands Bookie (Psycho) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 10:49 am:

That's okay, Pusch, I still love you.

By Homelands Bookie (Psycho) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 10:50 am:

Oh shyte, I should have ended that post with the dotty trio...

By Ineffable's Son (Eidtelnvil) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 05:20 pm:

When he's written a thirty page character entry on Urza, then he can have my spot. Until then, I still get to be the resident forum asshole.

Wicked, I'm in it just for the stories these days. I haven't played the game since Judgment.

*cough*But my legends collection is 100% complete with every legend in black bordered, English-text, $30-a-pop sexiness.*/cough*

By Puschkin (Puschkin) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 05:48 pm:

I still suggest reading his stuff. It's not about the usual deck stuff, either. He wouldn't do a character entry on Urza - he would put Urza into one of his evolution simulation programms and see how many spawns Urza would create ;)

By Captain Oats (Jestergoblin) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 06:09 pm:

Storyline-wise, Eid is still supreme. Even I'll admit to that.

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 07:06 pm:

Oh, all right, all right, I'll read it. It's been sitting on my couch for three days, and every day I've been wondering whether to risk it or to just play Final Fantasy 12 instead.

Since Final Fantasy 12 is losing my interest, I suppose I can take a stab at it.

By Wicked Darkman (Wickeddarkman) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 02:16 am:

JESTERGOBLIN: And my few stories in the burning sphere evolving around BADLUCK and killing me are nothing??? *Cries with big blue tears*

EIDTELNVIL: If you try to start reading my stuff it will probably be hellishly difficult! I have spread into almost every forum in here except storyline forum, to post my thoughts. I will have to search a little for a few key articles to make it easy for you, but it will still be difficult because most of it is a nasty mess!

By Captain Oats (Jestergoblin) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 08:53 am:

Wicked, those stories are part of the actual elaborate tapestry of Dominaria.

Who knows, maybe they will be remembered like the great Phyrexian HTML wars of long ago...

By Ineffable's Son (Eidtelnvil) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 05:07 pm:

Squeeman, FFXII is kind of a beeyotch. The license system makes me want to tear my hair out.

That being said, Lorwyn also made me want to tear my hair out, but from boredom. You should still read it, though. Mysery loves company.

JG, how far have you gotten? Are you at the part where Rhys and his friends get together for no discernable reason and decide go on a journey for no discernable reason? That's my favorite part. Of course, that's the entire book. Oh well.

By Captain Oats (Jestergoblin) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 05:09 pm:

I've only read the first 100 pages...

Some hobbits almost drowned, a fire person sat in a bubble, and then some elves commited genocide.

And there may be a talking tree.

By Drakk2 (Drakk2) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 05:53 pm:

Returning to the forum now that I've read the Lorwyn book, I must agree, this book was bad. I'm usually not a fan of Herndon (the 5 year jump between chapters in 5th Dawn was painful), but Ravnica was bearable and McGough is usually on par.

The plot felt forced, the characters were all bland, and as usual in Herndon's books, characters do things for no reason (or contradictory reasons) or random things happen and are never explained or given much depth or mystery.

Why did Teeg betray Colfenor? Why even bother with having Brigid betray them? Why would Sygg bother to continue helping in this suicidal mission?

Another point:
Ooh scary, people's memories are mixed up about 3 times in the book! Ooh! Intrigue! The entire plot, sadly, feels forced throughout. Not to mention, the main draw for me to continue reading is to find our why some of the many unexplained events happen, and it just keeps going, almost pointlessly. Ashling wants to follow Rhys because of an "elemental feeling" So Brigid does too?

I thought the point behind killing the planewalkers in the Time Spiral block books was so that they could do better stories without godlike apparitions, and yet they throw in unstoppable vines, several unexplainable elementals, and fail to put in more interesting characters. Planeswalkers of the past had more depth than Rhys, Ashling, or Brigid.

What happened to good magic authors? What happened to Grubb?

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 05:53 pm:

I'm not past the prologue. I still haven't read Eid's spoiler's yet.

My problem with FF12 is me. I've played enough Final Fantasy games that my instinct is to spend hours on pointless leveling up and sidequests to stay that little bit ahead of the experience curve. Which is to say, I've been playing the game for four days now, and have gotten almost nowhere in terms of the story, which is always my favorite part.

The license system is nothing compared to FF8's junction system. I enjoyed that, though, as well as FFX's sphere system (which is similar to the license system). So it's not bothering me.

By Puschkin (Puschkin) on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 03:37 am:

Did you play Final Fanatasy Tactics as well? Jut wondering because in that game, the random encounters do get stronger when you level up while the story element fights remain the same. So you'll face the paradox situation that a rando encounter with some friggin chocobos can be tougher than a boss encounter ... (still a fantastic game tho)

By Captain Oats (Jestergoblin) on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 08:46 am:

FFT is one of the greatest grid-based RPGs.

By Ineffable's Son (Eidtelnvil) on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 03:34 pm:

I preferred Fire Emblem, but that's just me.

Squeeman, you really have to power level in 12. There's really no way of getting around it. If you want the best equipment for everybody, you're going to need to fight a lot to get the cash for it. And it doesn't help that they throw you new equipment in every level. "What?! My stuff's sub-par again?! Dammit!" And you absolutely have to power level if you want to complete the hunting sub-missions. They're worth it, but they can get ridiculously long. I finally beat the Behemoth King after about an hour of fighting him. :-(

But the story is easily one of the best of the series--and let's face it, there have been some really, really good stories in this series.

And, like Puschkin said, it's one of the few FF games where you get to kill chocobos. After breeding them in VII and X-2, I'm on a mission to make the little bastards extinct.

Also, Drakk, I found myself agreeing with everything in your last post. It was a truly boring, predictable, and meandering read.

By a1withnoname (A1withnoname) on Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 09:00 am:

I read a bit of the beginning, and the landscape itself seemed nice, which is always something that I like, but half of that just came from looking at the cards. I don't know. I haven't read enough to pass judgement really.

It does get kind of pathetic when the storylines of video games get more complex than that of the MtG books... although Final Fantasy has always had some pretty fantastic storylines. I mean, VII was so complex that I'm still not 100% sure that I understood it...

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 08:11 am:

Okay, I finally picked up the book today and started reading.

I've gotten up to chapter 4. So far, the book has not tried to blackmail me, hold my loved ones for ransom, or burn down my home. So as yet, I am not ready to consider it a symbol of all that is wrong with the world.

That said, I haven't gotten to any particularly exciting bits yet, but hey, I'm at the beginning.

By Ineffable's Son (Eidtelnvil) on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 06:06 pm:

Hate to ruin it for you, but the exciting books ARE at the beginning of the book.

By MORT (Ashtok) on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 09:07 am:

Almost copy-paste from another forum:

I'm a bit dissapointed after reading Lorwyn. It wasn't very bad, but it wasn't good either. And all those unanswered questions the book left (which I fear, some will be forgotten and left unanswered) makes me feel like trying to comment just a first half of a torn book.

I have to say I didn't really like most of non-fae jokes in the novel (although faeries were ok, that's what they were meant to be).

faerie: "fat elf"
Maralen: I'm not! Why people keep saying so?

duh... like if she were some teenage girl on a diet.
(and it was the first time the new Maralen spoke with faeies on our eyes, so who else could say her that she was fat??? Not Ashling, not Rhys, not Brigid... no one has left... hmmmm)

Also, there were some things which just didn't work. (Eid already covered most of my concerns, though I don't agree with him fully.)

Take such Ashling. In the first chapter she says how evil elves are, that they can kill a flamekin if they wish so, just for being on their way.
However, when she meet Rhys (she dosn't know him and she doesn't even know he's an eyeblight - he's wearing a glamor) she makes a jokes of him (don't remember exactly now what she said, but she should be more repectful). Any other elf would most likely attack and kill her for this. How a mere flamekin can insult one of Blessed Nation?

Another thing is how the pack worked. First, book make us believe that the group of elves is so well organized that every one has its place there, that there is a daen, then his second, etc. Because they had to regroup according to their status in the group, take targets according to their status, etc. But when Rhys killed Nath, there was no one new to lead. And they outnumbered Rhys, and would kill him so easily! Rhys should be dead, unless he would release that blast of magic again. (To me it seems that he ascended with that first explosion during fight with boggarts, he just doesn't know this yet. That changed Maralen can hide a planescrawler who noticed Rhys and wanted to see him closely on his firt steps toward planescrawlerhood).

Maralen was one of not many strong points of the novel, and I agree, only by her mysterious appearence. Is she planescrawler? Maybe. I think though, that she's controlled by something. There was something faerie-like both at the beginning of the tale, when Maralen was attacked, and at the end, when she made that buzzling fog. Another strange thing was that vinebred was used only by elves to our knowledge, but the bride party was attacked by those "insects" with something working exactly like vinebred.

There were also some tiny bits about Lorwyn I enjoyed. For example mention of other races that actually aren't common on Lorwyn (and were never seen, even in the set (exluding changelings of course)), like ogres and dragons (!), the latter existing in kithkin tales.
I also enjoyed the superstitions of kithkin and merrow. Kithkin believed it's a bad luck to travel with a flamekin, while it was a good luck for merrow.

And I hope that it will be revealed that the mountains where Ashling was born are big enough to have ice on their tops. Ashling knew what the ice was (!), and that seemed to be little out of place in the world of constant summer.

Generally, I enjoy the world (how it is viewed on card's arts) and its flavor, but the book didn't explore this world in a way I expected and hoped.

By MORT (Ashtok) on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 09:26 am:

As for why Teeg wanted to kill Rhys, I bet it was because the elves occupied Kinsbaile, and Teeg could possibly know that it will be as long as Rhys is alive.

By Wicked Darkman (Wickeddarkman) on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 07:17 am:

With Nath's hatred campaign there would be no guarantee of the elves leaving the township.

Especially considering that they started the boggartslaughter with no fear of retaliation from the treefolk tribe!

I interpreted Nath's behavior as being someone about to start a solid worlddomination campaign compared to previous attacks against the lesser races!

I still think the whole affair is one big tolkien rob off, and they even take the setting tolkien used (Worldwar)

The elves are about to go blietzkrieg!

Let's hope for some really nasty attackworthy tribal creaturecards!!!