By Frederick Madden (Lordwindgrace) on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 09:46 pm:

Its me! I'm back, sorry about being away for so long, last time I was here I was going through army training, reason I didn't get back on is cause I just got back from Iraq a few weeks ago, I needed some down time. I have read some posts and it is good to still see familiar faces. Anyway, whats the deal on the second book of the Lorwyn cycle?

By Captain Oats (Jestergoblin) on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 10:06 pm:

oh god, there's going to be a SECOND?

By Lord Windgrace (Lordwindgrace) on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 11:08 pm:

Unfortunately there will be. . . hey I know! Why don't we make it even more horrible and have Vance Moore write it?

By Puschkin (Puschkin) on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 04:14 am:

It's a two expansion block, doesn't that mean there will two books? I mean, for example, Nemesis and Prophecy did have their own, too, right?

By MORT (Ashtok) on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 08:41 am:

There will be four books in the cycle, actually.

Lorwyn
Shadowmoor

then anthology:
Morningtide

and the fourth, yet unknown by name.

My guess is that Lorwyn's story about Rhys will end in Shadowmoor (it's a two-set block after all), then we'll have some short stories, maybe about planescrawlers and some of known/unknown legends from the set. And I guess that last book will be about Ashling, because she seems to have some greater story behing, which I doubt will have place in Shadowmoor. But who knows...

By MORT (Ashtok) on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 09:42 am:

errare humanum est

Of course, Morningtide is the second book, after Lorwyn. And Shadowmoor in an anthology.

I also forgot about little fact that Ashling is on the cover of Morningtide, so maybe her story will be covered.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WypqmgIYL._SS500_.jpg

Then again, description says only:

---

Quote:

Hunted by his own people and fleeing a pastoral world gone mad, Rhys must struggle not only to solve the mystery behind his master's cryptic suicide, but also to survive.

---

By a1withnoname (A1withnoname) on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 12:00 pm:

I'm kind of thinking I might not even get the books. I'll almost definitely get the anthology, though, because I like the shorter snippits of life more than the longer stuff they've put out recently.

An anthology of all Vance Moore stories!

By Lord Windgrace (Lordwindgrace) on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 06:34 pm:

I have invested so much into the books that its my responsibility to get the rest. And can you believe how they have messed up planeswalkers? I'm insulted! How can they wipe them out (make them lose their sparks) and not have King do it? Where has the good writing and quality gone?

By Lord Windgrace (Lordwindgrace) on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 12:20 am:

i thought they werent doing any more anthologies.

By MORT (Ashtok) on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 07:03 am:

They weren't.
But we always repeated we want them, and it seems that they finally did it.

I still think they should place them mainly in the Core Set fat pack.

By Sam KoMN (A1withnoname) on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 09:07 am:

Hah, wow. Yeah. King should totally have done it. Since destroying people/continuity is basically his main purpose.

Well, maybe if they're doing this, eventually they'll make planeswalkers cooler again.

By Dark Lord (Apprentice) on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 10:08 pm:

Windgrace! Good to see you friend!

About anthologies: We all know WOTC loves to make rules just to break them a few years down the line...

By Lord Windgrace (Lordwindgrace) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 12:22 am:

Good to see you too Apprentice, it has been a while. You're right WotC always did like breaking thier own rules but hopefully (though not likely seeing how the recent novel have sucked royaly) this anthology will be good.

By Lord Windgrace (Lordwindgrace) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 12:30 am:

Sorry to double post but I wish they would get back to the pre-Weatherlight stories like Arena, And Peace Shall Sleep, those were the best novels IMO, they were a lot richer in everything.

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 01:11 am:

Those were the stories that built Dominaria (expecially Aerona) from naught but scratch and a few card references.

I'd be excited about the anthology if WotC hadn't destroyed something like 95% of my enthusiasm for the continuity at the end of Future Sight. I'll read it, but frankly I expect it'll be a load of Lorwyn and planeswalker stories. While that's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself (unless you count my loathing of the Mending and anything associated, eg new planestoddlers), I'm not hanging on the edge of my seat for it.

Essentially, it's like having a wish granted, but neutering that wish of half the things that would have made it fantastic in the first place. Like what they pulled with the Time Spiral storyline.

By Lord Windgrace (Lordwindgrace) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 02:54 am:

Time Spiral. . .only good thing was it brought back old faces and. . . wait, that was the only good thing.

By MORT (Ashtok) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 05:32 am:

---

Quote:

Sorry to double post but I wish they would get back to the pre-Weatherlight stories like Arena, And Peace Shall Sleep, those were the best novels IMO, they were a lot richer in everything.

---

By MORT (Ashtok) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 05:35 am:

On the other hand, seeing how they can easily destroy a good thing, I fear that we would later regret such move...

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 12:03 pm:

Old locales... inevitable references to flavor texts and trivia (like the Ghitu Fire-Eaters) that come with Scott McGough's work... mentions of Rabiah, Homelands, Kamiagawa... Jeska dies... viashino that aren't slobbering morons but the kind seen in the Urza's block... the return of Leshrac...

Time Spiral had a lot of things that should have added up in an amazing way. It kept me interested for long enough. Unfortunately, it was all basically structured around the premise that the masterminds of the story wanted to bulldoze the whole thing. It was like saying "I'll let you have this priceless museum-quality diamond bullet, but the only way you're actually getting it is if I shoot you in the face."

The Mending is not worthless, but it's not worthless in the same way that the development of the atom bomb isn't worthless. Sure, if it were not for that invention, we wouldn't have the movie Plan 9 From Outer Space or any of the Godzilla films. But would a person be crazy in thinking the price was too high?

Wow, what an inappropriately harsh comparison.

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 05:23 pm:

Speaking of viashino, am I the only one who misses the viashino of the Mirage and Urza's blocks? The Mirage viashino were proud desert folk with an animist tribal look. The viashino of Shiv also had a distinctive, intelligent look.

In contrast, the viashino in the Ravnica and Time Spiral blocks looked like slavering, psychotic weirdos in the artwork.

In Time Spiral, it was sort of explained- they'd been surviving in a harsh Dominaria for ages. Still, I miss the respectable viashino of yesteryear. The Jamuraan ones are distinct from the Shivan ones, but neither look like rabid dogs.

Also, am I the only one who has thought since the beginning that the viashino entry in the Phyrexian encyclopedia is something like 75% fanfic? I mean, it's written semi-autobiographically.

By Sam KoMN (A1withnoname) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 07:06 pm:

Wow, when you put it that way, the atom bomb seems much more like a wonderful, acceptable thing. I mean, between Dr. Strangelove, Plan 9 from Outer Space, and Godzilla...

I'll check that entry out again. Its been a while since I looked at the encyclopedia. Which is kind of pathetic, actually.

I personally thought Arena was fantastic. I liked King's Invasion novels, but even they weren't at the same level as that book. It just had so much depth to it!

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 07:31 pm:

It was a shallow and destructive romp through a city of wizards rife with fantasy cliches, a Ravnica Meets Otaria feel, a predictable plot, and simple, one-sided characters.

That said, I enjoyed it immensely. It has a kind of thrill to it not unlike watching an Indiana Jones movie. It introduced us to planeswalkers (the prominent example not being so very different in terms of power from the dudes we had around by the time of the Invasion novels), to Benalish heroes, lords of the pit, and more. Its spellcasting characters were not monocolored mages, but were described as pilgrims whose prerogative it was to travel Aerona and beyond, and who therefore cast spells of numerous colors. Unlike Ravnica, its five Houses were not each representative of colors of magic, but were designated colors based on their own heraldry: Houses Gray, Orange, Purple, Brown, and Turquoise, and members of any house could practice any color of magic. Tidbits from that novel and the ensuing Gull/Greensleeves trilogy laid much of the groundwork for the development and design of Aerona as we know it.

And Clayton Emery was writing his trilogy as the Arabian Nights, Antiquities, and Legends sets were coming out. As they did, he blended them into his novels, giving us, among other things, the first in-novel glance at the Brothers' War, Lat-Nam, and Keldon warlords (who are also from Alpha but the point remains).

Whether those novels are canonical is highly debatable. Nevertheless, based only on scraps of information from cards, they laid the groundwork for so much of what was to come afterwards. And much of that is unquestionably part of the canon. Almost everything that happened prior to the Mending owes much to these novels.

I can't believe I forgot Dr. Strangelove. I must be losing it or something. Also, Night of the Living Dead and many zombie movies to follow.

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 09:14 am:

Something to add: the current gang in charge of continuity have hinted numerous times that they have some kind of major storyline in motion but that they can't reveal it yet. Brady Dommermuth has done so a few times.

Scott McGough, I think, mentioned that there were restrictions on his use of Jodah in the stories or something to that effect. The reason being that the creative team wanted to save him for later. In addition, the card Jodah's Avenger in Planar Chaos created a precedent of the archmage's name in the cards. That's pretty much a green light for them to develop a Jodah card in the future.

There was also the final scene with Karn in Planar Chaos, hinting at something evil out of the past. That foe was kept mysterious, and both it and Karn were saved for later. Nicol Bolas was also spared, for what it's worth.

Add to that the new planeswalkers and the fact that they all have backstories, and it's looked for a few months now like something secret and overarching is in the works.

That said, I'm still too jaded from the Time Spiral fiasco to give it more than cursory enthusiasm or acknowledgement.

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 09:17 am:

Or, if we're lucky, the Mirari will do to the new planeswalkers what it did to Otaria. Karn will definitely have redeemed himself for being incompetent all those times since he ascended.

By Wicked Darkman (Wickeddarkman) on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 12:34 pm:

"Something to add: the current gang in charge of continuity have hinted numerous times that they have some kind of major storyline in motion but that they can't reveal it yet. Brady Dommermuth has done so a few times."

I think it's just a crappy "sell stuff by being vague" strategy.

Just like they stated stuff like:

*These new cards will change everything about magic.

to sell lorwyn.

Sure I can se some perspective to it, much of it has to do with my old theory that they are trying to bring more power about to scrubs!!!

(Think about the lorwyn duallands. Pro's will never use these, but they have come up with some solid tribe combinations that will make scrubs more competitive. These duals will end up being in the hands of scrubs, and from there WOTC will be able to evolve the tribes into a scrub future setting, by adding commons and uncommons that will only work within these tribes. It's a solid marketing strategy.)

Appart from this scenario I dont see much change to the future of magic. Not at all.

My take is they want to be vague when talking about the storylines so we will buy the books with a certain amount of hope of improvement in the storyline, since everything is open if you surround it by mystery/nothing-hints!.

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 02:35 pm:

It's possible. But there was an overarching storyline before the current creative cadre came to power. They've been under some pressure by storyline fans to make an effort to return to such a thing. There have been two set-spanning storylines so far, one in comics, one in novels, and the comics arguably don't count. And if there's it be a most recent one, it is born out of the gutted remains of the past. Kind of like a maggot phoenix.

Arguably, that's what happened between the Planeswalker War and the Weatherlight Saga too. The PW went unconcluded (unless you play the Battlemage computer game, which I haven't been able to get my hands on). While the Weatherlight Saga more or less existed in the world that had been created by and prior to its predecessor, there's been little concrete acknowledgement of the events,and some things have been completely contradicted.

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 02:40 pm:

Plus, given all the abuse he's taken since the Mending (especially from Eid), it wouldn't be surprising if Brady Dommermuth has had to cry himself to sleep a few times since Future Sight came out. That probably isn't the case, but it's probably some incentive to work on something that I (and other fans too, I guess) can appreciate for more than just two or three books at a time.

By Ineffable's Son (Eidtelnvil) on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 12:46 am:

Squeeman, don't read too much into it. Scott McGough only said that Jodah's true identity was left up to the reader IN CASE (I don't remember how to do italics, sorry) WotC decided to flush out the story more.

As for Karn, Dommermuth did indeed hint that both he and John Delaney know something about Karn's disappearance that neither one can comment on.

Personally, I really like the "Karn uses the Mirari to blow all the bradywalkers to hell" scenario.

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 05:52 am:

I'm not turning into a crazy Jodah conspiracy buff though it would be fun. However, I stand by my point on Jodah's Avenger. Referring to the character on a card is a green light for designers. Mark Rosewater told a story during Time Spiral's release that he had been pushing to make a Sidar Kondo card for the set, but that the idea was shot down because Kondo existed only in the storylines and only briefly and probably nobody except one or two storyline fans and Vanguard card owners even remember the name. Instead we got Stonebrow or something. I don't remember specifically who got Kondo's slot, but I'll grant that Stonebrow is infinitely superior to, say, a Veza card. Anyway, that they made a Jodah-related card signals to me that they are at least acknowledging the character and possibly have plans to rake in a profit somehow.

As for the Mirari... is there anything it can't do? It was essentially designed as a camera, but it's acted as a One Ring, a wish granter, a power battery that can make a magic sword mightier than ever before merely by being attached to it, a haywire evolution accelerator, and as a template for the AI of the megalomaniacal golem shadow ruler of Mirrodin. Also, the aforementioned sword can kill false gods when wielded by comic relief characters (I would pay good money to have Squee be the one who defeated Karona). The Mirari is perfect for the job of destroying the Bradywalkers because it's perfect for any job. Especially those where large quantities of collateral damage are not an issue.

\ i {Your Text Here}

By magicmaster (Element0) on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 10:14 am:

The only problem wth using the Mirari is tha it is not the Mirari anymore. It is Memnarch now.

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 11:13 am:

Memnarch got de-Memnarched at the end of Fifth Dawn. The last reports of the silvery orb have it sitting in one of Slobad's pockets.

By Sam KoMN (A1withnoname) on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 04:39 pm:

And Slobad basically is pathetic comic relief, similar to but far less cool than Squee. So, it would definitely make sense for him to destroy all Bradywalkers.

Bleh. I'll believe in a complex and intriguing storyline when I see it. [Well, Weatherlight, but I mean a new complex storyline.]

However, I can't resist a conspiracy, so I'm definitely in on the Jodah conspiracy thing.

THE GOVERNMENT IS PUTTION JODAH INTO OUR WATER SUPPLY!!!

By Ineffable's Son (Eidtelnvil) on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 05:27 pm:

No wonder why I listen to so much pop music.

By Squeeman (Squeeman) on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 07:19 am:

Slobad wasn't really comic relief. Well, yes he was, but he wasn't intended to be the gag of Mirrodin in the same way that Squee was the source of most slapstick in the Weatherlight Saga. Slobad was more a source of determined light heartedness, and was more central to the story. Squee, meanwhile, evolved from slapstick figure into a central character who was still the comic relief.

So yes, Slobad wasn't as funny as Squee. But that's because he was intended for a similar but essentially different role.

As for a complex storyline, the issue isn't the complexity. The Weatherlight Saga had all the qualities that make a story endearing and enjoyable. Future stories have to bear in mind not to totally copy the formula or they'd be, well, formulaic. On the other hand, you have the Otaria storyline in which the continuity dept took tentative steps away from the WS formula. We certainly got a readable book or two out of that plotline, not to mention a silly hat, but it was on shakier ground from the get go.

But then there's always the other formula that has occasionally reared its head:

Plot < violence < lots of violence < plot + more violence than you can swallow without choking