By Newt #8976094534 (Wedding_Sengir) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 02:37 pm:

I recall that at some point the inhabitants of Dominaria were frustrated at Urza for dissappearing for a long period of time (whether they needed his help, or wanted to kill him, i do not recall).
Can someone give me an example of such an instance, and also a book / page number if possible?

I want to use the book as a reference in a research paper for school

By Supersquee! (Squeeman) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 03:18 pm:

You're doing a report on Urza?

By Newt #8976094534 (Wedding_Sengir) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 03:42 pm:

no im not doing a report on Urza :P
heh... i wish.
I'm doing a report on links between different forms of religion, and how certain groups interpret and portray them. I've heard comments of how the Urza-ish series has a lot of parallels with the bible, and after I introduce that thought, ... uhh... it's too difficult to explain in a single message. Just trust me =P. Do you know where i can find said comment?

By Supersquee! (Squeeman) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 04:10 pm:

Those are are mostly references to specific biblical (and other) stories, and not parallels to entire religions. For example, the golems in the Phyrexian Arena in Apocalypse are a reference to a folk tale of the Jewish people of eastern or central Europe, who created a golem out of clay to protect themselves, but later had to destroy it (I think).

I'd recommend chapter 1 of Planeswalker. There may be some juicy quotes about how the world has come to hate Urza.

It's not that Dominarians were frustrated at Urza for disappearing. Most thought him dead thousands of years ago. They were mad at him (and Mishra) for destroying Terisiare in a massive war (like how the world would look back at a war between Hitler and Stalin if those two ruled the world) and for using the Golgothian Sylex which essentially destroyed a huge chunk of the world (like if Hitler and Stalin and America had used their nuclear weapons on each other). They are the people - like Hitler - that generations of Dominarians were raised to hate. And for fairly good reason, as far as the average Dominarian was concerned. Very few people on Dominaria - if any - knew that Urza had become a planeswalker.

Few people hated - and in some ways, resembled - Urza more than Freyalise.

I miss characters I liked.

Ahem.

So I'm sorry to say that if your paper is about how the world is wondering when the messiah willl return, you unfortunately won't get that from Magic: the Gathering, because it wasn't explored in the stories. Except maybe from Tourach, but that's a bit of a stretch.

Also, plagiarism is evil. It's like strapping rabbits to your feet to see if they give you jumping powers.

By Lord Priest (Xdritex) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 04:14 pm:

Actually, The Thran had very Christian-esq theming, much like The Lord of the Rings does.

By Newt #8976094534 (Wedding_Sengir) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 04:47 pm:

Plaigarism? I said I'd use it as a reference. I'll cite it.
Yes, things like Thran. And a lot of Apocalypse = Revelations, and Urza and God are both omnipotent "protagonists", so to speak.
As for when the Messiah will return, That's not relevant to my paper, because only 2 major religions (i think) involve Jesus, and i'm comparing gods on a much larger scale.

crap crap crap!
So I looked for Planeswalker, but my family is currently in the process of moving, and it's locked away in a box at the moment. this is gonna be a pain.

By Trapt (Troy) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 04:58 pm:

Isnt phyrexia something like hell?

I mean, everyone that goes there has no will, and is tortued, and if you think about it, it can kind of resemble hell. Maybe such as the 7th sphere?
There were also Yawgmoth demons.

You could say, that religions often affect storys and how places are defined by locations in the bible.
In this case, Hell, and phyrexia are alike by...
?

By Newt #8976094534 (Wedding_Sengir) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 05:53 pm:

Dante's Inferno, the Divine Comedy
1400's ish? i think
Dante's trip through the afterlife brought him through nine circles of hell.

By Newt #8976094534 (Wedding_Sengir) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 06:30 pm:

i'm pretty sure MtG did that on purpose

By Sengir (Sengir) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 09:14 pm:

really though, what doesn't have religious undertones nowadays...

By Newt #8976094534 (Wedding_Sengir) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 09:46 pm:

precisely.
that makes it easy to incorporate such a leisurely topic into a research paper
makes it fun!

By Sengir (Sengir) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:29 pm:

haha I see your logic. it works.

I've always found theology fascinating even though I personally am not particularly religious. I've observed several traditions in different faiths just to see what the experience is like.

By Trapt (Troy) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:51 pm:

Your doing it all wrong sengir, what you need to do, is join every religion, like i did.

That way, you have all of your bases's covered ;)

By Sengir (Sengir) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 11:04 pm:

Well I suppose that would work for some...but I couldn't join a religion that I didn't believe in. That would be silly, like putting pickles in Sprite to make pickle-flavored Sprite. My roommate does that.

By Lord Priest (Xdritex) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 03:41 am:

That's really really gross...

Pickles in Sprite!? Really!?

I mean, who drinks sprite!?!?!?!?


actually, Sprite is alright...I really don't like pickles though

By Supersquee! (Squeeman) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 07:08 am:

Trapt, you're insane. Most major religions state "if you follow another religion, you're going to hell."

Which means that your soul will be torn and simultaneously be sent to every possible hell. You haven't failed by one religion's standards- you've failed by them all, and you will suffer accordingly.

By Sengir (Sengir) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 02:44 pm:

Accordianly to Gary Larson, they play accordian in Hell. have fun with that.

By Trapt (Troy) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 02:46 pm:

No supersquee, what you say when you die, to whatever god or religion is right.

Is that you say, o but look i did pray to you!

I was only trying to convert mroe followers to our true religion!

By Sengir (Sengir) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 02:49 pm:

Maybe more people will convert if you run a spellcheck on your invites...=P

By Sam KoMN (A1withnoname) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 09:19 pm:

An omnipotent and omniscient god is not going to buy that. If that's what you're banking on, then you might as well just be an atheist and trick god with science when you die. I mean, you're basically doing a worse version of Pascal's Wager, and the Wager was pretty logically useless to begin with.

I think the problem with Urza as a god figure comes from the fact that he was capable of defeat at the hands of The Ineffable. On the other hand, I think you could view both him and the Lord of the Wastes as controlling, manipulative gods, and thus view the Weatherlight saga as symbolic of the futility of mankind's desire for free will. I would personally love to see that.

Also, pickles are wonderful, as are most things with vinegar.

By Newt #8976094534 (Wedding_Sengir) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 09:25 pm:

Great concepts. I'll see what I can do with it.
It's a very small essay (12-ish pages final copy) but probably too big to put on here. but if you're really interested, i'd be happy to show you what I've come up with.

just so you know, so many other topics outweigh MtG in this essay, that it will probably be 10% max mtg. But since we're having a "religious debate" here anyway, so to speak, maybe you'd like to see it?

By Sam KoMN (A1withnoname) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 09:44 pm:

I would love to, just because I'm a total literary nerd.

By Marcus Bradley (Darnell083178) on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 12:21 pm:

At the very beginning of the second artifacts cycle book, Planeswalker, its states that for about 2500 years afterwards everyone hated Urza and Mirsha for what they did. Only after Urza re introduced himself after he took down Gix. After that Urza left again, came back to Tolaria and under a false name led the school in artifact research. He then became more hated with each disaster that follows him

By Homelands Bookie (Psycho) on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 12:32 pm:

Huh, now I'm interested in that paper too...

By Ghaleon (Xanatos_Yfel) on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 07:26 pm:

wow i haven't even heard from that dude in the longest time.
regarding the joining religions, and "if you follow another religion, you're going to hell," I've actually convinced a Christian pastor that Allah and God are the same and persuaded him and many of my Christian friends to observe Ramadan and many other muslim events. I used to be big on theology =P But that's another story.
ahem.
I don't know if i completely understand what Marcus is saying. Do you mean that Urza defeated Gix, stated his name just to get credit for it, and then disappeared again?

By Wicked Darkman (Wickeddarkman) on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 12:47 am:

About the golem myth:

The thing that golem was, had the word "Golem" written on it's head!

To defeat it the hero destroys the first letter in the word, changing it to "Olem" which means death!

A rather cool myth!