By Squeeman on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 08:00 pm:

What is the shape of the planes?

Two things are evident.

1) Dominaria, and many others are actual round planets (from various sources).

2) They are separated by boundaries of reality.

Yet it is confusing. If they are planets, then by rights, they should be part of a solar system. They should have some kind of sun (as well as, in some cases, moons or other satellites). The space teory is only made more convincing by the cosmic horror from Jedit.

As I see it, there are several different options:

1) The planes are really planets. The Blind Eternities are outer space. Pyrulea is a weird factor in this theory, but it could merely be inside out. On the other hand, this could explain Shandalar's movement. Still, if this were the case, how would the Shard work?

2) Imagine cards or coins, laid down flat, and grouped together, some overlapping, some touching, some near eachother, and some cmpletely far apart. Each card (or coin) is a world. When you are on a world, it has dimensions. When you leap off, it loses them. For example, a planeswalker is on round Dominaria and 'walks off. Behind him or her, the plane suddenly becomes flat. The space between the two cards is the Blind Eternities.

This would explain the Shard. Imagine some cards get stuck together. That could be a model for the crystallized boundaries. Shandalar could be a card (I guess coins are really more suitable for this model) drifting through the others, knocking them aside, or drifting past them entirely.

It would also explain the different laws of physics. Different planes function diferently with regard to time, gravity, etc.

What this model does not explain, though, is space. If Dominaria is the plane itself, then how can their be any room beyond its gravitaional pull? Maybe Dominaria is a plane with simply one sun, one planet, two moon, and a lot of fake, pasted stars. Ugh.

3) Another theory is a mix between the previous two. Planes could be the previous model, but at least occasionally with an entire universe, based on superclusters, clusters, galaxies, etc. It doesn't sound right, though.

I'll give the rest of my theories later. However, none of them explain every facet of the theory of planes. I very much doubt that WotC has actually figured it out for itself.

By Apprentice (Apprentice) on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 08:11 pm:

The spiritual definition of a plane is a higher counsiousness or place, where new consept or things to you are rampant. i will talk about that later, I have other things to do right now.

-Apprentice

By TX on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 01:58 am:

The answer to what a plane is lies within the name of the group of planes in MTG. The multiverse. In other words, multiple universes. Each plane is a seperate entity from every other plane. However, as with any group of physical objects, certain laws apply. That is why planes can move, and planes can group together, IE the nexus. The Blind Eternities is what exists outside of the planes, or universes. Within each universe, there are certain laws, not constrained by any overruling laws existing in the multiverse. It's the difference between internal and external. What effects a plane in it's interaction and reaction with the multiverse effects all planes in the same way (external laws). But once inside the plane, anything goes (internal laws).

The only question remaining for me, is what happens when one travels to the edge of a plane with no means of travelling outside the plane? Remember in Time Streams, the curtain of existence enclosing Serra's Realm. Maybe anything that comes in contact with the border of a plane disintegrates. Oops, scratch that. New thought. Remember Glacians PROOF of planes of existence? Infinite space. You can never reach the edge of a plane by linear travel.

By eidtelnvil on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 11:11 am:

I believe the idea that planes are flat is all but moot. In both Rath and Storm and Nemesis, when the heroes are in Volrath's map room, it displays a globe for Dominaria and for Rath.

By Squeeman on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 11:21 am:

So basically, a bunch of cardboard boxes of non-uniform sizes and shapes, each with a basketball (or whatever, depending on the plane) inside, and each with its own laws of physics? When I was alking about alternate realities, I meant different universes, but you phrase it so much more nicely.

When Serra's Realm started deteriorating, one of the adverse effects was that an edge formed. If a powerstone started to lose its infinite power, that would obviously affect the infinite space inside. Of course one might argue that with the infinite power gone, the whole concept is down the drain...

Then again, artificial planes do not necessarily have to be made from powerstones. Powerstones, though, when charged, necessarily hold infinite space, whether that space has a describable form beyond swirling chaos, or not.

Well, I have another question (and still feel free to add input or opinion to the first). Where does Dominaria end? With the gravitational pull? Solar system? Universe like ours? The planet would seem somewhat insignificant if its unverse was like ours. Why would it be any more important than the next chunk of populated rock? And yet, where would the stars come from otherwise? Maybe stars are merely part of the plane's unexplained physics. Maybe we just think too much...

By Squeeman on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 11:35 am:

When I said that planes are flat, I meant when one is in the Bastard Plane. When one is on an actual world/universe, the plane suddenly takes on whatever dimensions and physical laws that apply to it. Ths, leap onto one card, and suddenly, you are standing on a globe. Leap to another, and you are standing in a globe in a globe, in a globe, in a globe, in a globe, in a globe, in a globe, in a globe, in a globe. Leap to another, and you are on a flat but 3-d world with floating islands. Etc. And they don't only have to be next to each other.

What is Rath's edge, then?

By TX on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:21 pm:

Right, Glacian's proof is probably only for artificial planes. That's how I think a plane can be created. Good ol' Yawgmoth knew this from Glacian, but it looks like it took him a pretty long time to find a way INTO the powerstone (named Rath). At least that's my theory on Rath's creation.

Natural planes are probably a very different story. For one, nature is the most efficient system ever conceived. So going with that, I would think that natural planes end where their use ends. So, the plane of Dominaria ends somewhere outside the orbit of whichever moon is farther from the planet. Not too far out though. Maybe the stars are other universes, like how we can see certain galaxies in the night sky.

By TX on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:27 pm:

Oh, btw...Squeeman, are you feeling OK? You agreed with me...

By Squeeman on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 07:38 pm:

Well, really what you said was what I said, only clearer. Then again, I haven't been having enough sleep lately...

Wow. Thats weird.

Maybe if something left Dominaria and travelled skyward, it could travel forever and never get anywhere, rather than just bumping into an edge.

One of us should reread the end of The Eternal Ice, when Freyalise takes Jodah and Jaya really high uo into the sky, r the BLind Eternities, or something like that. It gives a mortal's perception of the planes.

By wolf_2099 on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 08:23 pm:

To be breif and Frank.

The edges in the MtG universe are probably the walls between worlds, where everything gets ripped apart.

and who is to say stars aren't just clustered mana in their world? (dumb idea, I know)

By Chainer on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 08:38 pm:

Ahh ha! Eureka! After grueling hours of research and missing sleep, I have found it, the rarest card in existence, Rath's Edge(probably even rarer than that black flower thing). If anybody hasn't noticed yet, Rath has an edge. It is not round, but don't forget it was artificilly made. Maybe that makes it different than other planes.

By Squeeman on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:29 am:

Yeah. I think I mentioned it. Different plane, different reality, different laws that govern it. I dont think that it is the walls of a plane (and they should really only be apparent on a decaying artificial one) tat rips one apart, but for a mortal crossing from a plane right into the Blind Eternities, without even planeswalking there, would probably be more disastrous than crossing from a slow time rift to a fast time rift.

By Squeeman on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:42 am:

As as for me agreeing with TX, now that I'm awake enough to explain...

There are some fact about the planes that are obvious:

1) Different planes can be governed by different physical laws, including time (Equilor), gravity (Serra's Realm), and space (any non-decayed artificial plane). Pyrulea is probably the best example, though.

2) Different planes ARE separated by reality, as all the books will tell you, and this area of separation is the Bastard Plane, although planes can overlap and alter, or infect each other (Rabiah, now the 'Infinite')

3) The Bastard Plane is not subject to any of the physical laws that govern the planes, other than the fact that space does actually exist in it, and time seems to retain a relative presence.

4) Within the Blind Eternities, a plane can be mobile or immobile. Shandalar moves almost completely erratically (although the planeswalkers seemed to predict it as a sort of Hailey's Comet), while the planes of the Dominarian Nexus, and their constant connection to such planes as those of Rabiah are completely unchanging (of course, it is fully possible that the different Rabiahs move round, and Dominaria is always connected to a different one at a different time and no one notices).

5) I'm still thinking. I know that there must be an obvious one I'm missing.

By Squeeman on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:47 am:

Anyway, those are the facs that we agree on, and are suggestive of at least a basic model of the planes.

You know what intrigues me? The artificial planes are said to be mostly separated from Dominaria by a large distance (Rath is an exception, and it was a 'pocket plane' anyway, meaning it was attached to Dominaria). Serra's Real and Phyrexia were both planes, a little near to each other, but far flung from the rest of the multiverse. Do created planes go somewhere (i.e. do they appear in a certain place)? Or do planeswalker just build them where there is room? Or what?

By Squeeman on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:49 am:

Am I the only one here who gets the impression that I ramble on much too much?

By f on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 02:03 pm:

whats equilor?

By KillTheVec2134324 on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 02:26 pm:

Stupid spammer. Equilor is the plane at the edge of time. its dumb.

By Tilar on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 08:37 pm:

Well, I've not much to add on this because, simply said, I just don't know. But anyways, here's my two cents on a little bit of it:

I was under the impression that Serra's Realm and Phyrexia were practically as far away from each other as possible. I think I got this idea from Planeswalker or something, not sure. But anyway, if this is true and I'm not just making up stuff, then that would also put me under the impression that:

A: Planeswalkers purposely place created planes far away from others of opposite mana(Though, is there proof that the dragon that created Phyrexia was going to use it for black mana purposes?).

B: Dominia has some sort of way of seperating planes of opposite colors. Perhaps it follows the same color standard on the back of cards. This would explain why Dominaria is in the middle, since it is supposed to be pretty balanced.

C: I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, and should just content myself to read.

Personally, I think C is the best answer

By TX on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 04:06 pm:

I hate to totally shoot you down here, but I think most of what you said is wrong.

First of all, all natural planes are balanced...I think in that way, they all follow the laws of nature and conservancy. I don't even really buy that Dominaria is in the middle.

I think that artificial planes have a large gulf between them and the natural ones because they are NOT part of the natural order of things. I'm pretty sure that Serra's Realm and Phyrexia were actually very close to each other, which is why when Urza fled Phyrexia in a random jump, he ended up in Serra's Realm.

By Tyler on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 07:16 pm:

What about Planar void? And The Aether? Mabey stars in the sky are mearly the stars of other planes, and they are all in a universe. Different realities (Rath, Serra's Sactum, ect.) are in "pocket realities."
Ok-Space=Blind Eternities=Bastard Plane
The Abyss (Legends) may be a black hole, along with Null Void. The Aether( in old physic)is what light and energy travels trough, so creatures travel through it when sommoned.

By Tilar on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 10:08 pm:

Don't worry TX, shoot down all you like.

If Dominaria weren't in the middle, why would it be called the Dominarian Nexus? I believe that even in the rule book it describes the Multiverse as a spider web with Dominaria in the middle.

Still, I do believe you are right about any natural plane being balanced.

I just read over Planeswalker, cause, I assume that's what we meant when we say "random jump". Urza never at any time jumped directly from Phyrexia to Serra's Realm. He was on some ice planet when he was attacked by some Phyrexian turtle things, and, close to losing he instead 'walked to a random plane, and ended up in Serra's Realm. This probably disproves my Plane-closeness theory as well, however.

By Squeeman on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 05:01 am:

Of course, some natural planes may contain much more of one kind of mana than another, but the fact that they are natural means that the presence of another sort of mana won't unbalance the plane into pseudo-meltdown.

Most planes don't seem to have any effects on those nearby. Phyrexia and Serra's Realm were separated by reality, and thus they could not harm eachother. Of course, that is not necessarily true. Rabiah is the outstanding exception, and there are probably many more.

By Squeeman on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 09:20 am:

Dominaria is one of infinite planes. The Dominarian Nexus is just a group of twelve worlds that are cloely connected, and of which Dominaria is in the middle.

Dominia is the multiverse.

By Tilar on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 01:26 pm:

Hmm...Nexus by definition means that it's in the center. Guess that just had me confused.

Let me take a moment to say that I haven't read Ice Age trilogy(Just gonna start tonight) nor the legends cycle books, so if any info is coming from them then I must admit I wouldn't know it.

I wonder what creates a natural plane. Was there a big bang? Did Gaea do it? So much to theorize about.

By Squeeman on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 07:29 pm:

No clue what creates a nutural plane. There is a dwarven myth that it was created by the joint efforts of Gaea and Fiers, the god of fire. Then, every culture on every world probably has some sort of creation myth.

I think that it probably just happened by natural scientific/magical processes.

By eidtelnvil on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 01:04 am:

Planeswalker says that natural planes are born and destroyed by the hundreds every day. No info on why exactly their made. That'd deal more with a religious aspect of MtG, and that's something I don't think WotC wants to get into (don't blame them).

By Squeeman on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 08:38 am:

Yeah, people get in a lot of touble for making up religions. Luckily for us heathens, the complainers don't open their mouths directly at us.

By Apprentice (Apprentice) on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 04:49 pm:

There is no center to space. If the planes resembled space in any way, slim to none of this thread would be true. I dont think the Enernities have any ties to our world at all, or i would recognize it. Read Steven Hawkings "A Breif Histroy of Time" or any of Carl Sagan's books on space and you will understand how parts of the explainations of Aether were weak attepts to compare it to space. Dont muck up two complete opposites in this thread.

-Apprentice

By Nemesis on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 07:00 pm:

ugh...i didn't even bother to read most of this and it still confuses me.