Squeeman's Timeline V2.0

Phyrexian Forum: Dominarian Chronicles - Sixth Sphere: Archive of 2003: Quarter III: Squeeman's Timeline V2.0
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Evil Moderator (Eidtelnvil) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:15 pm:

Done completely without permission, here is an updated version of Squeeman's timeline. I've corrected/mutilated lots of the dates and thrown in the whole Otaria garbage, plus both Legends Cycles and a few hopefully-still-in-effect prerevision stuff. I'm sure it needs editing, but that's where all of you come in.

And, a warning, if this thread turns into Maraxus and Xion acting like ... well, like themselves, I'll delete those posts.

Date unknown - Taysir defeats Nailah. Taysir ascends.

Date unknown - Elder Dragon War. Dragons and wurms duel.

Date unknown - Elder Dragons victorious. Elder Dragons ascend.

Date unknown - Common dragon and common wurm created.

Date unknown - Primevals rise to power over Dominaria.

Date unknown - Primevals defeated by Numena.

Date unknown - Numena imprisoned by Averru.

Date unknown - Serra born.

Date unknown - Serra creatures Serra's Realm.

c. -5000 AR - Y@wgmoth born.

c. -5000 AR - Gix leads the first rebellion from the Caves of the Damned.

c. -5000 AR - Gix leads the second rebellion from the Caves of the Damned.

c. -5000 AR - Phyrexia controlled by Y@wgmoth.

c. -5000 AR - Thran Empire destroyed.

Date unknown - Vodalia founded.

Date unknown - Zhalfir founded.

Date unknown - Eskil ascends.

Date unknown - Keld founded by Kradak.

Date unknown - Sheoltun Empire collapses.

Date unknown - Wrenna conquered by an evil mage.

Date unknown - Torsten Von Ursus leaves Knights of Jenges and journeys to Hurloon to study under minotaurs.

Date unknown - Torsten Von Ursus founds Benalia.

Date unknown - Dakkon creates the Blackblade.

Date unknown - Geyadrine Dihada creates Sol'Kanar.

Date unknown - Etlan Schiis founded.

Date unknown - Sol'Kanar exploits Sivitri Scarzam.

Date unknown - War of the Scarzam Dragons.

Date unknown - Gwendlyn Di Corci comes to power at Urborg.

Date unknown - Nevinyrral activates his Disk at Urborg.

Date unknown - Baron Sengir born. Ravi born.

Date unknown - Madara founded by Nicol Bolas.

0 AR - Urza born. Mishra born.

25 AR - Brothers' War begins.

64 AR - Sylex explosion at Argoth. Argoth decimated. Urborg submerged, becomming a swampland. Urza ascends.

c. 64-170 AR - Church of Tal founded.

c. 170 AR - Sarpadian Dwarves defeated by goblins and orcs. Homarids capture Old Vodalia. Vodalian empress Galina flees with royal mages through portal, ending up over 4000 years in the future. Oliver Farrel breaks apart from Icatia. Tymolin Loneglade killed in skirmish between Farrelite priests and Order of the Ebon Hand. Tev Loneglade becomes Tevesh Szat and vows to extinguish all life on Dominaria. Thallids destroy elven empire at Havenwood. Thrulls rebel against Order of the Ebon Hand. Ebon Hand begins Counter-Insurgency. Necrites assassinate Jherena Rure. Counter-Insurgency defeated. Goblins and orcs destroy Trokair and other Icatian cities. Icatian Empire collapses. Only fortified towns remain.

c. 300 AR - Dark Age begins.

c. 300 AR - Founding of the Conclave in western Terisiare.

c. 300 AR - Ith imprisoned. Mairsil the Pretender usurps power in Conclave of Mages.

c. 330 AR - Jodah born.

c. 350 AR - Jodah frees Ith.

c. 350 AR - Tivadar of Thorn begins a crusade to destroy goblins.

c. 450 AR - Ice Age begins.

c. 500 AR - Freyalise born.

c. 520 AR - Tevesh Szat kills Freyalise. Freyalise ascends.

c. 550 AR - Shard of Twelve Worlds fully forms.

c. 550 AR - College of Lat-Nam renamed to School of the Unseen.

c. 600 AR - Soldev founded. Kjeld founded. Krov founded.

c. 700 AR - General Jarkeld dies.

c. 850 AR - Barrinalo born. Becomes mage and takes up the name Barrin.

c. 1000 AR - Marton Stromgald dies. Lim-Dul finds Mairsil's ring.

c. 1100 AR - Lim-Dul falls into a coalition with Tevesh Szat and Leshrac.

c. 1650 AR - Urza befriends Xantcha.

c. 1700 AR - Urza attacks Phyrexia. Urza is defeated.

c. 1750 AR - Urza flees to Serra's Realm.

c. 2000 AR - Serra's Realm invaded by Phyrexia. Serra leaves plane. Radiant comes to power.

c. 2700 AR - Summit of the Null Moon takes place. Leshrac and Tevesh Szat kill Ravidel. Faralyn escapes the Shard.

c. 2750 AR - Gerda Aagsdotter drugs Jodah and gives him to Lim-Dul.

c. 2750 AR - Jodah unites Kjeldor and Balduvia against Lim-Dul.

c. 2750 AR - Lim-Dul begins major war against Kjeldor and Balduvia. Jodah defeats Lim-Dul. Lim-Dul taken to Shandalar by Leshrac.

c. 2750 AR - Freyalise casts Worldspell. Ice Age ends. The Shard is broken. Phyrexian gains reentry to Dominaria. Jaheaul Carthalion defeats Tevesh Szat with an Amulet of Quoz.

c. 2770 AR - Kaysa and Jaheaul Carthalion lead Fyndhorn survivors to Yavimaya.

c. 2770 AR - General Varchil leads rebels against Kjeldor and Balduvia.

c. 2770 AR - Varchild defeated by Jodah.

c. 2770 AR - Jodah unites Kjeldor and Balduvia into New Argive.

c. 2770 AR - Soldev destroyed by rampaging Phyrexian artifact creatures.

c. 2770 AR - The School of the Unseen is destroyed. Jaya Ballard ascends.

c. 2800 AR - The Homarids recede to colder trenches of the oceans.

2934 AR - Urza returns to Dominaria with Xantcha.

c. 2940 AR - Xantcha hires Ratepe to pose as Mishra.

c. 2942 AR - Urza kills Gix. Xantcha and Ratepe die.

c. 3000 AR - Johan attempts to conquer Bryce.

c. 3000 AR - Urza's Bloodlines project begins.

c. 3010 AR - Johan killed by Jedit Ojanen. Bryce and surrounding lands enjoy prosperity.

c. 3015 AR - Argenti and Kusho defect from Madaran Empire. Tetsuo Umezawa attempts to reconcile the islands, but is thwarted by Ramses Overdark.

c. 3017 AR - Marhault Elsdragon leads major campaign against Argenti and Kusho. Both islands are crushed. Ramses has Marhautl killed and rises to power. Tetsuo exiled as traitor.

3107 AR - Tolarian Academy founded by Urza Planeswalker. Barrin serves as headmaster.

c. 3270 AR - Teferi born.

c. 2380 AR - Karn created.

3285 - Tolarian disaster takes place. K'rrik trapped in Giant's Pate.

3346 AR - Urza Planeswalker discovers the Thran Mana Rig at Shiv. Urza befriends Shivan Viashino and goblins. Urza captured by Multani.

3350 AR - Urza escapes and destroys K'rrik. Urza allies with Yavimaya.

3350 AR - Urza creates Weatherlight.

c. 3360 AR - Sengir recruited to fight in planeswalkr duel on Ulgrotha. Sengir abandoned.

c. 3360 AR - Teferi ascends.

c. 3370 AR - Serran refugees move to Benalia.

c. 3370 AR - Davvol becomes steward (later evincar) of Rath.

c. 3370 AR - Barrin marries Rayne.

c. 3370 AR - Gatha defects from Tolaria. He moves to Keld and rises to power.

c. 3370 AR - Jolrael is born.

c. 3400 AR - Sengir discovers Ravi, now Grandmother Sengir. Sengir rises to power in Ulgrotha.

c. 3500 AR - Femeref founded.

c. 3500 AR - Suq'Ata colonizes northwest Jamuraa.

c. 3600 AR - Internal toil in Zhalfir begins with Femeref and Suq'Ata.

c. 3700 AR - Teferi returns to Dominaria and sets Queen Yormeba on the throne of Zhalfir.

c. 3700 AR - Teferi moves to Chaza Isles to begin private research.

c. 3750 AR - Teferi's Isle phases out of existence.

c. 3800 AR - Mangara, Jolrael, and Kaervek investigate Teferi's isle.

c. 3805 AR - Mangara makes peace between Zhalfir, Femeref, and Suq'Ata.

c. 3820 AR - Kaervek and Jolrael trap Mangara in an Amber Prison.

c. 4000 AR - Phyrexians begin raids on Keld. Croag leads the invasion of Keld.

c. 4012 AR - Kreig dies. Phyrexia repulsed.

c. 4020 AR - Phyrexia begins raids on the Capashen towns in Benalia.

c. 4050 AR - Virot Maglan founds the Otarian Cabal and becomes its Patriarch.

c. 4100 AR - Empress Galina returns to Dominaria.

c. 4150 AR - Galina conquers Etlan Schiis. New Vodalia founded.

c. 4150 AR - Rashida born.

c. 4180 AR - Gerrard Capashen born.

c. 4190 AR - Mirage War starts.

c. 4190 AR - Kaervek trapped in an amber prison. Mirage War ends. Teferi returns.

c. 4200 AR - Astor becomes a Keldon warlord.

c. 4200 AR - Volrath becomes evincar of Rath.

c. 4200 AR - Rofellos killed by Gallowbraid and Morinfen.

4204 AR - Gerrard Capashen recruited by Weatherlight's crew to rescue Captain Sisay.

4204 AR - Keldons begin raids on northeastern Jamuraa.

4205 AR - Gerrard Capashen leads Weatherlight's crew to Rath to rescue Captain Sisay. Weatherlight's crew escapes with Sisay to Mercadia.

4205 AR - Volrath killed by Crovax. Crovax becomes evincar of Rath. Eladamri, Lin Sivvi, and Takara en-Dal escaped from Rath to Verduran on Dominaria.

4205 AR - Barrin and Rayne aid Teferi in the Prophecy War against Keld. Keldons are defeated in southeastern Jamuraa. Rayne is killed.

4205 AR - Weatherlight returns to Dominaria.

4205 AR - Phyrexian War begins. Phyrexians bomb Benalia under Tsabo Tavoc's leadership. Benalia is destroyed.

4205 AR - Eladamri arrives in Llanowar.

4205 AR - Phyrexians bomb Llanowar. Llanowar is crippled, but intact.

4205 AR - Phyrexians attack every other place on Dominaria.

4205 AR - Lich Lord Dralnu joins Urza Planeswalker's Coalition.

4205 AR - Urza assembles the Nine Titans to train in his titan engines.

4205 AR - Orim develops a cure for the Phyrexian plague.

4205 AR - Hanna succumbs to Phyrexian plague.

4205 AR - Barrin destroys Tolaria and commits suicide.

4205 AR - Battle of Koilos begins. Thaddeus dies. Tsabo Tavoc flees to Phyrexia. First stage in Phyrexian War ends.

4205 AR - Second stage of Phyrexian War begins. Rath overlays Dominaria.

4205 AR - Weatherlight defeats Phyrexians in Hurloon.

4205 AR - Urza leads the Nine Titans to attack Phyrexia.

4205 AR - Tevesh Szat kills Kristina of the Woods and Daria.

4205 AR - Eladamri and Astor lead the Keldons and the Skyshroud battle Phyrexians in the Battle of Twilight. Keldon Necropolis falls. Astor leads survivors to safety.

4205 AR - Gerrard and Squee are captured by Crovax.

4205 AR - Darigaaz awakens the Primevals and goes rogue. Darigaaz kills himself to break invincible chain of the Primevals. Crosis destroyed by Weatherlight. Rith imprisoned by Nemata. Dromar the Treva destroyed by Coalition dragon forces.

4205 AR - Urza kills Tevesh Szat.

4205 AR - Urza joins Y@wgmoth. Urza kills Taysir.

4205 AR - Gerrard joins Y@wgmoth. Gerrard battles Urza in the Ninth Sphere.

4205 AR - Freyalise, Lord Windgrace, Bo Levar, and Commodore Guff bomb Phyrexia. Phyrexia in ruins.

4205 AR - Weatherlight becomes a living creature.

4205 AR - Gerrard defeats Urza and escapes the Ninth Sphere.

4205 AR - Crovax killed by Gerrard. Gerrard and Urza's severed head escape the Stronghold.

4205 AR - Third stage of the Phyrexian War begins. Y@wgmoth enters Dominaria. Billions die. Bo Levar and Commodore Guff both die.

4205 AR - Null Moon is destroyed.

4205 AR - Weatherlight, Karn, Gerrard, and Urza unite to form the Legacy Weapon. Y@wgmoth is exiled. Karn absorbs the memories and experiences of Urza Planeswalker and Gerrard Capashen. Karn ascends. Weatherlight destroyed.

4206 AR - Memorial service held on Urborg.

c. 4250 AR - Karn creates Argentum. Karn creates the Mirari and sends it to Dominaria.

c. 4250 AR - Y@wgmoth begins to rebuild Phyrexia.

c. 4250 AR - Mercadia again conquered by Kyren goblins under Phyrexian influence.

c. 4300 AR - Otaria last surviving threshold of civilization on Dominaria.

c. 4300 AR - Chainer finds the Mirari.

c. 4300 AR - Kirtar is given the Mirari by the Cabal Patriarch.

c. 4300 AR - Kirtar uses the Mirari to destroy Pianna. Kirtar dies. Northern Order in chaos.

c. 4300 AR - Emperor Aboshan acquires the Mirari. Otaria flooded. Aboshan dies.

c. 4300 AR - Braids brings the Mirari back to Cabal City.

c. 4300 AR - Kamahl kills Chainer. Cabal City obliterated.

c. 4300 AR - Kamahl brings the Mirari to the Pardic Mountains. Kamahl uses the Mirari. Jeska is injured.

c. 4300 AR - Kamahl and Balthor take the Mirari to Krosan Forest.

c. 4300 AR - Balthor becomes undead. Kamahl kills Balthor. Kamahl kills Laquatus.

c. 4301 AR - Kamahl becomes a druid and entrusts the Mirari into Krosa's care.

c. 4301 AR - Jeska becomes Phage and joins the Cabal.

c. 4301 AR - The Grand Coliseum is built.

c. 4301 AR - Ixidor creates Locus. Ixidor creates Akroma.

c. 4301 AR - Akroma attacks Phage.

c. 4301 AR - Kamahl and Phage begin a war against Ixidor and Akroma. Phage creates the Deathwurms. Ixidor is swallowed. Kamahl goes into exile.

c. 4302 AR - Akroma rises to power at Locus. Zagorka discovers the city of Averru and colonizes it.

c. 4302 AR - The Cabal Patriarch and Phage conceive a child.

c. 4303 AR - Phage gives birth to Kuberr.

c. 4303 AR - Akroma and Phage attack each other at Averru. Kamahl destroys Akroma, Phage, and Zagorka. Karona is created.

c. 4303 AR - Otaria falls into worship of Karona.

c. 4303 AR - Kamahl recovers the Mirari.

c. 4303 AR - Otarians begin numerous wars to gain Karona's favor. Karona takes up residence at Eroshia.

c. 4303 AR - Kamahl freex Ixidor. Ixidor becomes Lowallyn, a Numena.

c. 4303 AR - Kamahl and Ixidor recruit Kuberr. The Grand Coliseum is destroyed by Karona.

c. 4303 AR - Kamahl, Ixidor, Kuberr, and Averru face Karona at Averru. Karona exiled from Dominaria.

c. 4303 AR - Karona wanders the planes, eventually arriving at Argentum. Karn allows Karona back into Dominaria.

c. 4303 AR - Karona destroys Aphetto.

c. 4303 AR - Karona attacks Averru. Ixidor and Kuberr are slain. Karon is killed by her flunkies Sash and Waistcoat.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:30 pm:

decent timeline.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By JG (Jestergoblin) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:39 pm:

Impressive...

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By MARAXUS (Maraxus) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 09:21 pm:

very impressive.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Lord Windgrace (Lord_Windgrace) on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:40 pm:

You forgot when Jeska ascends.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Tahngarth (Tahngarth) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:14 am:

WOW! realy amasing i must give you a "congrats"!!!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By The Dritex (Xdritex) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 12:06 pm:

Very nice job indeed.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By nick (Cosmos_Nick) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 12:39 pm:

how long did it take you to put that togeather?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Invain (Invain) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:05 pm:

Great job!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Nemesis (Nemesis) on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:41 pm:

Speaking of Squeeman, where has Squeeman been lately?

We could really use his in-depth knowledge of the storyline at a time like this.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By eidtelnvil on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 01:26 am:

I definately won't take the credit, I just "compleated" what Squeeman started. Most of the dates I touched up, but the "c." in front of them certainly stands for "circa".

Windgrace - I don't think Jeska's ascension is an integral part of the storyline, at least not for now. If she has some part to play in Mirrodin or something later, I'll certainly put her in. Jaya's ascension was only added because of her general popularity.

Nick - Too long.

Nemesis - Squeeman travels a lot. I'm sure he'll pop in sometime later (hopefully not to attack me for "butchering" his timeline).

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Scott_McG on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 11:55 am:

I would like to suggest a few changes/additions....

c4050 - Virot Maglan becomes the First and founds the current Dominarian Cabal

c4200 - Astor becomes a Keldon Warlord (this is a minor tweak to the date, but Astor is still a young warlord during the Phyrexian Invasion, so I bumped it up from your date of 4185)
c4203 - Warlord Astor battles Skouras the dragon
4205 - Astor, Olvresk, and Tajamin lead the Keldon surivivors of Twilight onto the Golden Argosy

Finally, I personally would place the events of Legends II much closer to the events in Mirage (i.e., circa 3820 rather than 3015). I realize this brings up the sticky issue of Legends I vs. Legends II timeline, and fouls up any attempts to connect the Tor or Xira characters from both trilogies, and further doesn't really synch up with the traditionally accepted era of the Legends card set (which is usually considered to have happened long ago). However....

The canon at Wizards might say different and you, the audience can reject my reasoning, but I really wanted to have the opportunity for myself and any other writers to use the characters from Legends II with characters from the period immediately preceding the Invasion. Assuming they all survive Legends II, I thought it would be cool to have Tetsuo, Dark, Meha, Tor, etc. in the same general time frame as Teferi, the Jamuraans and Suq'Atans from Mirage/Prophecy, the Keldons from "Keldon Fire," and the pre-Invasion Cabal. Nobody's asked me to write this big "crossover" story yet, but I just can't give up the chance to write a scene where Meha meets Olvresk, Astor and Tor square off and then compare notes on who had the tougher apprenticeship, or the First receives a Phyrexian ambassador to gauge Yawgmoth's power as compared to his own god, Kuberr's.

This is really just an author's lark, but if the opportunity arose, I wanted someone to be able to use my own favorite characters with my favorites from ths period in Magic history. It's the time frame I worked on when I was on the Story team and I'm most familiar with it and the characters from it, so I always held in the back of my mind that it was possible for these people to meet.

Hope this helps,

McG

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 12:09 pm:

Is this the real author, or an impersonator?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By The Ineffable's (Apprentice) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 01:32 pm:

Yes, Xion, he is the real Scott Mcgough...

Well, I think that these stories would indeed be awesome, but wouldn't the Emperor of Madara know about the invasion and do something?

Besides, the idea that all of this happend a long long time ago made it so romantic... I hope the sacrifice isn't too big.

-Apprentice

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Scott_McG on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 03:54 pm:

Personally, I imagine 15,000+ year-old Nicol Bolas keeping one eye on 5,000 year-old Y@wgmoth's big invasion plans and shaking his head.

"Ahh, the folly of youth," he might say.

But seriously, I honestly believe that NB did not sweat the Phyrexian Invasion (if he even noticed it--he's got irons in the fire all over the Multiverse) because he felt his own plans were so much more subtle and more carefully considered. It's also possible that he sneered at the Big Y's power and dismissed him as a short-term bump in the road. In other words, nothing he couldn't handle. He is a dragon, after all, with a dragon's arrogance.

And like I said, if it pleases the audience to imagine Tetsuo and the rest doing their thing a long, long time ago, it's okay with me. I just want to reserve the possibility that it happened in more modern times.

McG

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Nemesis (Nemesis) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 06:13 pm:

Scott, you didn't answer my question in the other thread, so I guess I'll repost it here.

Do you plan on ever writing more Astor stories for the anthologies? They are some of my favorites. (I really like the Keldons.)

Legends II is the best block in a long time. It may even be the best one ever, but I'll have to wait until Trial to pass that judgment.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Evil Moderator (Eidtelnvil) on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 09:04 pm:

Scott, thanks for the heads up.

Concerning your suggestions:

Virot Maglan - Added. Gracia.

Astor - Adjusted the date for his ascending to the title of warlord. (I always pictured him as older, but I guess that would mean that Tajamin and Olvresk would've been fighting Phyrexians with canes). I don't consider the battle with Skouras of overall importance in the history of Dominia. Added the bit about the Battle of Twilight (slipped my mind/Squeeman's mind).

Madara - I've left it where it was, just because of that sticky problem you mentioned. It boggles my mind why Emery was told to include those characters (Arien, DePietro, Wauki) in his novel, but apparently the editors felt it would be good for them to get some exposure before Legends II (Emery himself commented on this a while back). If, however, I see more concrete facts concerning a relative closeness in time between the Madaran War and the Mirage War, I'd certainly move it up regardless of a 800 year old Wauki (the books are called Magic after all).

Thanks for the help, it's part of why I updated Squeeman's list in the first place.

On to speculation:

As much as I (already) like Bolas, I'd had to say that he'd be making a grave error in underestimating the Lord of the Wastes. Arrogant characters are always amusing (especially as villains), but I really don't think the Ineffable would have as much of a problem taking down Bolas as he would Bo Levar or Commodore Guff. Then again, the fact that Scott mentions Bolas's plans makes me want to read CTrial that much sooner. I also wonder just how many planes Bolas has taken over, and if his claim that he walked Dominaria during its infancy is really just more draconic arrogance.

But, Mr. McGough, did you slip up a little there? If Bolas somehow knew about the Ineffable's plans, does that mean that he survives Legends II (I hope I hope)?

The proposed book idea sounds very crazy. Sort of a McGough amalgam? I could definately see the Madrans interacting in Zhalfirin business (even though that'd be like walking to Pakistan from here every time they wanted to invade). I'm not sure that Maglan would want a Phyrexian snooping around in Cabal business, doesn't seem like he'd put up with that.

Nemesis and I had a discussion about what I thought an excellent story would've been for Scott to write in Monsters of Magic (just got my copy today). I thought of a story where the Sliver Queen flees to Keld to escape the rising conflicts happening at Urborg during Planeshift and Apocalypse. There she finds the last surviving Keldon, which would be Astor of course. Sort of a MtG meets Omega Man.

Anyway, I'll have a Monsters spoiler up Saturday, if not tomorrow.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Scott_McG on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:21 am:

Nemesis,

Sorry I blanked on your question. The short answer is no, there are no more Keldon stories planned at this time.

The longer answer is that I have several strong ideas for more Astor/Keldon stories that I would love to write, but since they all take place in the MtG universe, I have to wait for someone at Hasbro/Wizards to give me a green light.

I've always wanted to explore what happened to Keld after the Phyrexian Invasion...maybe someday I'll get the chance.

Thanks for the interest.

Oh, and Eid, I'm not sure I follow your reasoning RE: Bolas and Y@wgmoth. No matter when Legends II takes place (800 years before the Invasion or just before), both Y and NB were alive for 5000 years before the Invasion. If NB paid any attention at all to Dominaria, he probably knew something big was brewing w/respect to Phyrexia. Whatever happens in Legends II wouldn't change what NB learned several thousand/hundred/dozen years in the past.

Does that address your concern, or did I miss something?

Basically, I'm saying that I cannot confirm or deny anyone's survival in Legends II.


McG

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By eidtelnvil on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 08:19 pm:

^^^
I didn't really have a concern. I was just stating my opinion on NB's arrogant nature. My opinion is that NB wouldn't stand a chance against the Ineffable, but that is draconic arrogance would prevent him from admitting that to himself (which makes him a better character, IMO).

And the bit about NB surviving Legends II was really just a joke. Thanks, though.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Nemesis (Nemesis) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 08:46 pm:

I dunno. I think that Bolas might be able to totally own the Ineffable. I have no idea how powerful he is, though.

Remember, Yawgmoth was a normal man who had 9,000 years to build up his power. Bolas was a planeswalker who has over 15,000. If he made constructive use of that time, he really could get the edge over Yawgmoth.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Aires on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 01:52 am:

"I think that Bolas might be able to totally own the Ineffable"

-I don´t know...

"Remember, Yawgmoth was a normal man who had 9,000 years to build up his power"

-A good example is (sorry !) the Witch-King of Angmar. He was a man before in LOTR, and after some time he became one of the most powerful forces of Midle-Earth.

"Bolas was a planeswalker who has over 15,000"

-And Gandalf (sorry again!) was timeless and the WK of Angmar was a very-very-strong enemy. Even to him.

-My point is, age is not - some times - a synonym for gathering power. In my opinion Yawgie would not be able to kill Nicol Bolas...BUT Bolas would never killed him in that time.


-Legend-

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:31 am:

I think that Bolas would put up a better fight than most Planeswalkers, But if Yawgmoth was at his peak of power he could kill anyone, and anything in an instant. Yawgmoth was beyond a planeswalker he was a God. Bolas would be a worthy adversary, but wouldn't last long in a direct conflict with Yawgmoth. Yawgmoth was the most powerfull being in the multiverse.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Nemesis (Nemesis) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 02:51 pm:

A bit ambitious, are we Xion?

How do we know how powerful the other beings in the multiverse are?

No, age is not a synonym for gathering power, BUT if Bolas made constructive use of his time, (as I said before) like Yawgmoth did, then 6,000+ years would be a major advantage over him.

Scott, you wrote Champion's Trial, you know Bolas's power, which is something that we are pretty clueless about as of now. What do you think would happen here?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 03:12 pm:

Yawgmoth killed billions of life forms per second (including planeswalkers) and raised a whole planet's dead in an instant to serve him. That sounds like something a planeswalker could never pull off.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Scott_McG on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 07:05 pm:

I've always held that in MtG, anyone is capable of taking anyone else down. It's a question of circumstances and planning, even more so than power. Squee can kill transformed Ertai if things go his way and there's a handy rejuve chamber for Ertai to get stuck in. Pre-Phyrexia human Yawgmoth (from The Thran) took down Dyfed the planeswalker because he knew her weak spot and surprised her. It's rarely just a question of who's more powerful.

So, NB going after Yawgmoth in the center of Phyrexia means Yawgmoth has the advantage. If NB 'walks both himself and Yawgmoth to the Blind Eternities, the dragon will likely win. If they went head-to-head on neutral ground (and I'm supposing all this takes place hypothetically and pre-Legends II, so the plot won't interfere with my musing), I would honestly give NB the advantage because he has more experience in direct combat and more practice weilding mana on a very large scale. Yawgmoth is infinitely powerful and crafty, but he was only a human general and warrior for a few decades, and he's fixated on black (with maybe a little red). I think NB's vast experience and use of blue would outmaneuver Y in the end.

Magically speaking, I think Yawgmoth could take NB, either with a surprise strike to his as-yet unknown Achilles' heel, or by infecting him with a deadly plague that turns NB into a Phyrexianized machine, or by simple brute force. No way does NB win 10 out of 10 times. But if they're both equally prepared and neither of them has hobbled the other before the fight begins (and I think if they ever did come into conflict, the one who saw it coming first would cripple the other before it ever came to a showdown), I would say that the Elder Dragon Legend/Planeswalker defeats the creator and god of Phyrexia.

But that's just what I think.

McG

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 07:26 pm:

I agree to the fact that the most prepared and intelligent usually win a fight. Yawgmoth uses any color of mana, but his favorite is black. if he uses other colors they are either enslaved or warped by black mana. Yawgmoth may have been a human general for only a few weeks, but In Phyrexia he probably learned infinatly more complex and effective strategies otherwise he would have never been able to orchestrate the Invasion as he planned. I would say both are highly experienced, calculating, intelligent warriors with overwhelming streangth. The reason that I don't think Nicol Bolas would win is that Yawgmoth killed planeswalkers as easilly as any other being in Apocalypse. Nicol Bolas may have used overwhelming amounts of mana before, but Yawgmoth's has as well. The death cloud/ total ressurection of all dead matter would definatly require a huge amount of mana. It would be an impressive battle to say the least.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Nemesis (Nemesis) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 08:40 pm:

Xion, when have you ever seen Yawgmoth use non-black mana?

Keep in mind that Bolas can planeswalk at will, while Yawgmoth needs a portal to do the same thing.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By MARAXUS (Maraxus) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 08:43 pm:

plus, Yawgmoth was severly damaged by a blow from a planeswalker that had only been around for 4000 years, true he was a genius to say the least, but Bolas is all knowing, if he was smart, which he is, he should build something similar to the legacy weapon, only more powerful.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By eidtelnvil on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:50 pm:

My Phyrexia.com Equivalent of the "Bears" Skit from SNL:

If they each had time to prepare, figure out the others weakness, and come up with the proper strategies, I'd say 50%-50% either way.

If Bolas randomly appeared on Dominaria during the Apocalypse, and neither had any idea they'd be fighting each other, I'd have to say the Ineffable 90% chance of winning (face it, the guy practically eats planeswalkers for dinner).

Human Ineffable vs. Nicol Bolas, Bolas with a 99% chance of winning (or higher).

The Ineffable vs Nicol Bolas, pre-Invasion, pre-Madran War with Argenti/Kusho - Ineffable 60% chance of winning.

The Ineffable vs. Nicol Bolas at the Ninth Sphere - Ineffable with a 100% chance of winning.

The Ineffable vs. Nicol Bolas post-Phyrexian War - Nicol Bolas with a 99% chance of winning.

So, basically I think it would depend on where the fighting was going on. But, if the Ineffable was at the power levels he displayed in Apocalypse, I really don't see a chance of Bolas winning. If the combined white mana of the Null Moon (9000 years worth) couldn't stop him, I don't see Bolas (who's based in black, blue, and red, colors the Ineffable knows well) having a shot.

:End Useless Speculation:

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Karona's Servent (Karonasservant) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 05:06 am:

I suppose that would work wouldn't it. About who will win and who won't win when, where etc etc between Bolas and the ineffable. I think those percentages were right.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 10:54 am:

Llanowar dead, Ebony Treefolk, Fungal Shambler, and Spiritmonger. These are all creatures Yawgmoth raised as he crossed over to Dominaria. Also there are lots of other cards that were representing things on phyrexia's side that wern't all black.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Nemesis (Nemesis) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 11:07 am:

Just because he brought back green mana creatures with black magic doesn't mean he can wield green mana himself.

Also, Bolas's ability to planeswalk would give him a serious edge when it came to escaping death cloud Yawgmoth, who needs a portal to escape.

I agree with pretty much Scott's entire statement.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By The Ineffable's (Apprentice) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 06:43 pm:

Thanks!

I think Nicol Bolas has moved up to my favorite character. I enjoyed the speculation, fellas.

Untill I see Bolas's true power, I wont speculate. Im sure that you wont let us down, Scott!

-Apprentice

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By MARAXUS (Maraxus) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 07:31 pm:

Question for scott, what would you say probibly happened to chromaten, or whatever the hell his name is? he's the one that looks covered in chrome

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By eidtelnvil on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:33 am:

Xion - Spiritmonger and Fungal Shamber weren't confirmed as the Ineffable's minions. And Ebony Treefolk's flavor text mentions the treefolk attacking Phyrexians, so it definately wasn't.

Maraxus - Pre-revision Chromium was destroyed by Dakkon Blackblade.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Nifallor on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 06:56 am:

The think is.. All NB has to do is destroy Phyrexia...

With all his knowlegde of planes and the Multiverse I expect NB would be able to let a artificial plane collapse (especially controlled by a non planeswalker)

Phyrexia is a plane of Black mana, the source of all the mana Yawgmoth used...

Ohhh and another thing about the timeline...
Barrin didn't learn magic at a age of 0-1
c. 850 AR - Barrinalo born. Becomes mage and takes up the name Barrin.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 10:55 am:

Ebony Treefolk was completly Chaotic. It was one of Yawgmoth's raised warriors and Yawgmoth didn't care who it killed. It drained Phyrexians of glistening oil to heal itself, and sapped the land of life in the process.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By MARAXUS (Maraxus) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 04:56 pm:

ok. i hate using this example, but remember when karona searched for other dieties? she came across yawgmoth, AS THE PERSON WHO SHOWED UP IN THE BLACK PORTAL!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Scott_McG on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 05:40 pm:

Maraxus,

I don't actually know what happened to Chromium after the events in the really early Magic comic books. I think Eid has the right answer, though.

Sorry I don't have more of an answer,

McG

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Nemesis (Nemesis) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 07:41 pm:


Quote:

Ebony Treefolk was completly Chaotic. It was one of Yawgmoth's raised warriors and Yawgmoth didn't care who it killed. It drained Phyrexians of glistening oil to heal itself, and sapped the land of life in the process.



And, just out of curiosity, do you mind telling me where you got this "information" from?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 08:32 pm:

Yawgmoth was black mana at his essence. That is why he came out of the black portal. Like a planeswalker, Yawgmoth can use any color of mana but commonly uses that of his essence as his main form of magic. @ Eid: In Apocalypse Yawgmoth made creatures that were collectives of dead matter that looked like grizzly versions of thier former selves. These creatures sapped the life out of the land corrupting it. This was probably a treefolk raised in Llanowar or Urborg. Creatures like this mindlessly sought to devour the living. It seems to me they didn't care what side the living were on as long as they gained nourishment. Ebony treefolk looks like one of Yawgmoth's undead warriors, and it's ability also fits in well to the function that I described.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By eidtelnvil on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 08:46 pm:

Nifallor, that's what the "c." is for, :-)

Xion, I would greatly appreciate you citing the exact page number and novel where you got that information. Somehow, it must have escaped my collection. The fact is that the INEFFABLE (please learn to say it) raised dead plant matter (detritus), not actual trees.

Scott, Eid has all the answers. ;-)

Maraxus, also the other EDs fell off the face of Dominia as well. Vaevictis Asmadi was imprisoned in the Abyss, so he wasn't ever really a problem. I think Sivitri Scarzam killed either Arcades Sabboth or Palladia-Mors (either that or they killed each other). Scott himself revealed a looooong time ago that Nicol Bolas was the only surviving ED. Hm, that makes me wonder if Scott planned to use him in a novel for that long. Egads. And of course all of this information is pre-revision, so anything that pops up about them in Champion's Trial would overrule all of this.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 08:51 pm:

Back to the don't say the Ineffable's name thing? I can do that agin if it is really nessecary, I thought that no one cared anymore. There is no page in Apocalypse that talks about Ebony treefolk, but is does say that he raised all dead matter that includes treefolk.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Karona's Servent (Karonasservant) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 06:00 am:

There is no page that says Yawgmoth made the treefok.
yawgmoth was nto only the only thing black-mana based. Heres a list of people
Tevash Szat
Leshrac
Yawgmoth
the Cabal (boo!)
Gix
Crovax.

Well Crovax, Leshrac and Yawgmoth were around in the Apoclyspe era. But what if the Treefolk was a creation in Rath? They printed the Dragon Primevals in Invasion but they didn't show up until Planeshift (except Darigaaz)
There are thousands of cards on the other hand that we will never know how they fit in the story.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 11:57 am:

They made undead treefolk in Invasion, but that was done with tiny mechanical caterpillar type things.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Asmodeus on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 12:56 pm:

In Rath and Storm, Volrath has a Llanowar tree. Maybe he grew the treefolk, in a forest of trees, then when Rath overlayed...There they were.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By eidtelnvil on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 07:59 pm:

Xion, if you are so sure of that, please provide the actual page number. Otherwise, I'm going to assume you made that up. I've read Apocalypse 5 times or more and don't remember seeing an ebony treefolk fighting for the Ineffable.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Nemesis (Nemesis) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 08:12 pm:

Not to mention the fact that it killing Phyrexians, which are on ITS side, is pretty inefficient, if you ask me.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By MARAXUS (Maraxus) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 08:50 pm:

Xion, i speak for pretty much everyone when i say, please don't post your yawgmoth oppinions on every thread, especially on a good one like this, its fine if you do it once in a while, but when it is all the time, it just degenerates into a flame war, warnings, and eventually bannings.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Karona's Servent (Karonasservant) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 07:54 am:

Maraxus has a point Xion. If you get a account and goto the 7th sphere, you don't have to tell us the accouint, just read whats in the 7th sphere. Theres 2 threads, yes 2 threads about you.
anyways, Like i said it maybe just a card they printed. Do you remember a Eternal Dragon in Scourge books? or a Sneaky what ever it is called in Nemesis? Even better do you see Squee scounting around in Rath and Storm reporting or even meeting a Cinder wall?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By MARAXUS (Maraxus) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 12:22 pm:

theres a lot of crap that they put in the cards that they don't put in the books, i think they did it so that you would have to collect all the cards(is such a thing possible?) to peice togeather the story.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 12:36 pm:

I didn't post any Ineffable worship here at all. In Apocalypse read pages 216- 219. It tells about the mass ressurections in Urborg and Llanowar. There are plenty of examples of creatures that sound like Ebony Treefolk.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Karona's Servent (Karonasservant) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 01:56 pm:

True, another ture point from Xion (yes i was sad enough to check)
However! "It's roots are equally happy to drink the water of a clear stream or the oily blood of a phyrexian warrior."
Explain Xion for us all! Black may be the colour of the Ineffable, But doesn't mean it is on the Ineffables side. We got Leshrac who was tormented by Yawgmoth. Both were Black mana based.
Radiant hated Serra. Both were White mana based.
Cephalids and Wizards both Blue mana based.
Goblins and Dwarfs Red mana based.
Errrr..... Not so sure about Green.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Nemesis (Nemesis) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 02:38 pm:

Just look at Fallen Empires:

White: Icatians vs. Farrelites
Blue: Merfolk vs. Homarids
Black: Thrulls vs. Order of the Ebon Hand
Red: Dwarves vs. Orcs and Goblins
Green: Elves vs. Thallids

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 07:50 pm:

It could be the creation of a necromancer, but I doubt it. I assumed that since there were creatures created by Yawgmoth that were so similar to this creature that it was one of his minions.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By eidtelnvil on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 08:13 pm:

^^^
And you assumed incorectly.

216:
In Urborg it began.
Swamps, bottomless in much, boiled. The dead things BENEATH THE WATERS rose. Things took form. They DID NOT RECONSTITUTE INTO THE TREES THAT ONCE STOOD ON and beasts that once roamed across the islands. Instead, they formed into CREATURES OF HUMUS, hulking and monstrous things WITH HUNCHED BACKS AND TWISTED LIMBS AND EYES LIKE SNAKE HOLES. They were monsters of black peat and BITS OF BONE. They churned up through entombing waters and clawed their way onto land.
A hundred thousand, a hundred million, they were. Swamps sank. Killing things plodded out of the muck.

Please pay close attention to the parts in caps. Thank you.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 08:18 pm:

What of the dead raised in Llanowar?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By MARAXUS (Maraxus) on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 09:41 pm:

I think that ebony treefolk was in urborg for a while, think about it.

a few treefolk seeds or saprolings couldl have floated to urborg long ago, they would still be based on green mana, because they are treefolk, but over the course of many years, they would learn to drink blood/water and survive basically in urborg, which is entirely black mana based.

if i recall correctly, yawgmoth emerged(rather stupidly if you ask me) in urborg. urborg is very far away from lanowar. the lanowar dead could have been brought back thanks to dralnu, or other black scorcerers working for the coalition.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Tyler on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 09:04 pm:

Couldn't Bolas create an artificial plane that would collapse within a minute, planeswalk Yawgmoth there, then Planeswalk out? The collapse would kill Yawgmoth, with little effort from Bolas.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 09:54 am:

I don't think that Yawgmoth could be defeated that easilly.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Karona's Servent (Karonasservant) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 02:36 pm:

Theres a fight between Crovax and some army (can't remember.) The chapter title is "music in the spheres" i think. (Can't find the book for now.) Crovax fights Saporlings and i think he fights Treefolk.
Ebony Treefolk anyone?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Xion on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 05:11 pm:

Nah, they were regular treefolk look at Fervent Charge.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By MARAXUS (Maraxus) on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 07:12 pm:

umm, xion, if you are inside a plane when it collapses, you cease to exist. period. end of story.

that would be a smart way to kill yawgy, but i think he would be too smart for that.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By eidtelnvil on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 07:24 pm:

And how exactly is Bolas going to grab hold of the Ineffable and carry him there?

Bolas - "Haha! My sinister plan has worked! Now all I have to do is transport you to my plane and watch as it collapses around you! Mwahaha! Hmm. Having some trouble finding something to hold onto here. Kind of stings, too. Argh!"
Ineffable - "... 'kay."

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Squeeman on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 08:29 am:

Let me just give my take on the ebony treefolk. I never doubted this as it always seemed to be the most logical answer (to me, anyways).

In Apocalypse, a part of Yavimaya was transported to Urborg. This color clash was a major theme in both the Apoc card set, and somewhat in the book.

Now, I'm going to assume the air of a pompous, condescending professor.

Urborg was a haven of back-mana-ness. For goodness sake, zombies rose up just from people having died there. When that much corruptive power clashes with a treefolk, the treefolk can choose to die, or adapt. That they would be feral creatures like treefolk make sense with the flavor text, and the corruption idea makes sense when you think that they were neither zombie treefolk raised by Urborg, Yawgie, or anyone else. Nor were they mechanoid walking trees (and I sincerely doubt that Yawgmoth would wast his time making any, since he's likely to reduce his own forces as well as the enemy's.

Thats my idea. That, or they are savage treefolk native to Urborg.

And an easy way to kill the Lord of the Wastes, would be to build a little artifact that would convert black mana into whatever you need. Then, you have a nigh infinite mana battery, as long as Yawgmoth uses his adorable little cloud form. And if he shape-shifts, then its pretty even grounds, in addition to the fact that Bolas has the slightest edge, what with his 'walker abilities.

Kudos on the timeline, by the way. I've been meaning to work on it for ages, but never got around to it. I will not bite your head off... today.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Squeeman on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 11:25 am:

By the way, am I the only person who thinks that McGough's suggested crossover story (stories?- I don't see how they would all mix together, but that would make for a rather complex, though possibly very good story) would be very good, if written.

I have to work on my sentence structure.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By eidtelnvil on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 06:43 pm:

I'm relieved to find my head will not be removed any time soon (although there's really nothing in it, if anybody wants it they're more than welcome to take it).

I like the proposed story, but I'd like to see an honest-to-Y@wgmoth Mirage storyline first. I'd also like to see McGough write it (or Grubb since he's been gone for SOOOOO long). Of course, any Legends II characters that popped up (like Barrin and Rayne in Prophecy) would be an added bonus.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By JG (Jestergoblin) on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 06:45 pm:

can anything really get more complicated than the weatherlight saga?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Squeeman on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 08:39 pm:

Well, in that case, I will take your head after all. I have an empty spot on the mantlepiece that is a bit of an eyesore, you see.

And all the counter-plots and various sides in Mirage make it somewhat more complicated than the Weatherlight Saga, which is really just long.

With regard to Mirage, am I the only person who is getting tired of the somewhat formulaic trilogy setup?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By The Dritex (Xdritex) on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 11:07 pm:

I am! Seriously, it was nice and all to have teh story's sorrta just stick with ethe blocks, and teh bolocks only be 3 sets big, but now it's sortta annoying. just 3 sets, 3 stories, and then we shift around some for some new stuff, and maybe we'll keep teh story a little relative to what it was in the last block; that's just...just...just so boring now. i think it'd be cool if they went along witha few independant blocks(different form eachother in mechanics and so on) but kept the storylione through them on the same track and all. I don't know, it just seems like that's all people do these days- ooo, lets make something...ohkay, done...now lets add 2 moere things to it so it's a cool trilogy, casue good things in the past were in trilogy format(LotR, Star Wars). A little shake up is needed.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Squeeman on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 06:29 am:

I don't hate trilogies by default. Sometimes a trilogy is just what an author has in mind, and it best suits the story.

However, other times- especially in MtG- it seems that the trilogy format is strictly enforced. This gives the books a somewhat artificial feel. Back in the day, Rath and Storm alone covered three sets quite nicely. Meanwhile, Antiquities, Urza's Saga, and Urza's Legacy covered The Brothers' War, Planeswalker, and Time Streams. Stories overlapped sets and vice versa. Antiquities and Urza's Saga took the reader through The Brothers' War, Planeswalker, and most of Time Streams. The other half of Times Streams was the events in Urza's Legacy (all of this is reversible). It just has a nice air of authenticity about it- a feeling that the author isn't just being told to fill up three hundred pages with a semi-predetermined story or not get paid.

I make my example of the Onslaught Cycle. Overall, the story was not loathsome. What I hold to be the greatest flaw with that cycle is that it was told in only three books. Had the story been lengthened, I could have swallowed it more easily. Onslaught was good. However, as soon as it ended, we were thrown into this weird prophecy that no one expected. The transition was much too fast. The Cycle should have been written in at least five books, or at least with longer stories. Karona and the numena lasted only one book, and as a result seemed overly contrived. I have no doubts about King's storytelling skills. He proved his excellence with Time Streams and The Thran, and I'm quite fond of the Invasion Cycle too. The three books that he wrote the Onslaught Cycle in seemed too restrictive to properly make the whole story ft as snugly as a bug in a rug.

Maybe thats a little too cynical. I'm sure the authors get more room to breathe than that, but thats the general gist of the biased preconceived idea in my mind.

In summary, trilogies can work very well, but only so long as they support the story. To focus an entire line of books on making trilogies feels cheap and demeaning. It does not mean that the books are bad, but some of the glory is lacking.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Squeeman on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 06:59 am:

Well, now that I've made it quite clear that I would resent a Mirage line of books written in trilogy form (vain hopes, Squeeman), I'll repeat eid's question:

Who (of the MtG authors thus far) does everyone think should write them?

Authors include (in alphabetical order):

Lynn Abbey-
Planeswalker

Loren L. Coleman-
Bloodlines

Clayton Emery-
Johan, Jedit, Hazezon (not to mention the Gull/Greensleeves trilogy)

Jeff Grubb-
The Brothers War, The Gathering Dark, The Eternal Ice, The Shattered Alliance

J. Robert King-
Time Streams, The Thran, Invasion, Planeshift, Apocalypse, Onslaught, Legions, Scourge

Scott McGough-
Chainer's Torment, Assassin's Blade, Emperor's Fist, Champion's Trial (yet to be released)

Will McDermott-
Judgement

Vance Moore-
Prophecy, Odyssey

Paul B. Thompson-
Nemesis

Every author has strengths and fortes. Who would be best suited, in the general opinion of those congregated at this humble web forum?

I also have a question for Mr. McGough if he is still reading this thread. You mentioned a 'green light' being given before you can write a novel for Wizards. Does that mean that they wait, and then demand that certain people write the novels (or that they decide that they want a novel written, and present their request before the usual people)? Or do you come up with an idea, and ask them if you can write it, then await permission? Just out of curiosity.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By The Ineffable's (Apprentice) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 10:59 am:

Scott not only would do a great job, but its his turf. If Wizards judged who deserved it most, he would be responsible for that block. Besides, he could throw in cameo appearances of Legend's characters, which would make me very inclined to read it.

-Apprentice

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Scott_McG on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 11:33 am:

Squeeman,

Usually, the editors at Wizards know what they're looking for (a trilogy, a short story) and they approach a freelancer like me. The (informal) "green light" I was referring to would happen sometime after a draft outline was handed in, based on discussions bewteen the author and the editor. For example, during the outline stage for Chainer's Torment, I proposed that there be a famous, possibly mythical Cabalist named Cateran specifically to create a possible link between the Dominarian Cabal and the Cateran Guild in Mercadia. It might be a rumor, a coincidence, or definitive evidence of something sinister, but I wanted to name this guy Cateran. My editor checked with all the right people, thought it over, and then gave me the green light, so into Chainer's Torment he went.

I would have to do something similar if I wanted to include Astor or Tetsuo in any future novels I write for Wizards. Because MtG takes place in a shared world (that is, many different creative minds contribute to its makeup), the editors and continuity people have to approve any reuse of existing material.

Does that answer your question? Let me know if I need to babble some more.

McG

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Squeeman on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 09:25 pm:

No, thank you. That babble was quite informative.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Squeeman on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 10:03 pm:

No, thank you. That babble was quite informative.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Squeeman on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 10:08 pm:

Hmmm. I forgot Francis Lebaron- Mercadian Masques.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By The Ineffable's (Apprentice) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 11:04 pm:

Le Baron! Le Baron, Le Baron!

-Apprentice

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By eidtelnvil on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 11:56 pm:

I'd vote for Grubb as the writer of a Mirage/Visions cycle. Overall, he seems to do novels based on older card sets justice. The fact that he incorporates so many actual occurences in the flavor text into the book is very interesting. Also, he works the actual card mechanics very nicely into the story without making it scream "This is a card game!" too loudly.

As far as the trilogies go, I agree completely. I would greatly prefer the authors to stretch the books out as long as possible. A trilogy on the Brothers' War alone would be fantastic (and it's not like they couldn't stretch it out and still keep it interesting).

While we're on the subject of pointless wishing, I'd also like to see more than six books a year. I'm not sure why WotC sticks to this formula. Surely there are a great number of writers who would jump at the chance to do a MtG book. And then there are fan-favorites like Tompson and Lebaron (or my personal favor one-hit-wonder Coleman) who would greatly appreciate the chance of writing for MtG again.

(Squeeman, while I'm thinking about it, I don't think the Ramirez/Wauki scenario would work and still fit into continuity. I've thought of it myself. The first Legends Cycle seems to take place roughly after the Flood Age, since it mentions an ancient war that separated Dominaria from Dominia and Tamar mentions the glaciers receding in the first few chapters. This would mean that Legends II would have to take place around this same time, and Mr. McGough has been kind enough to state that it is actually closer to the Mirage War. There was once a time when I looked at editorial flops from WotC with an evil scorn, but it's become so commonplace lately that I really don't care anymore.)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Squeeman on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 01:48 am:

Eid, I know that it will never work out. It was just wishful thinking. Wait, did I make that point on this thread? I can't find it anywhere. The Legends Cycle I happens roughly four hundred years after the Great Thaws. I remember Hazezon saying that somewhere. It doesn't matter. I've been an MtG geek for at least as long as you, and I've quite gotten used to gaping continuity holes. Of course, we should have seen that coming. There aren't really enough legends to go around ithout overlapping. And it doesn't matter anyway. I like Ramirez DePietro quite a bit. Whether he is a foppish pirate or a swashbuckling mercenary, I am quite fond of him.

I'm not sure which author I would opt. I think that the best idea might be a combination of authors, as in the Odyssey, Artifacts, and Masques cycles. Here is my reasoning:

Personally, I love the work of Jeff Grubb. The Brothers' War yet remains my favorite MtG novel (not counting Arena). However, in the Ice Age Cycle, I thought that he focused a little too much on a single character. Generally, thats all right, but Ice Age was a set that had several central characters. I sympathize that it must be difficult to link all those characters in different settings. However, I found the way it was done to be a little contrived. He is also quite good at finishing things with a bang (as we learned in TBO). Still, I think that Grubb would be the best candidate for writing a book/books on the events of the Visions set (Asmira, Rashida, and the Scalebane Elite).

As for the earlier book(s) in the series, I would either opt J. Robert King or Scott McGough. Both of them paint rather good battle scenes (IMHO). Remember that Mirage is a set that spans roughly 800 years- with a two hundred year gap from when Teferi phases out, to when he phases in again. There are central characters, like Jolrael and Teferi to bind everything together. King proved his excellence in writing the Thran, which was a great prologue, and he has a good grasp of great leaps of time. Furthermore, Teferi is a character that belongs almost entirely to him, as he wrote almost all the novels with him in them. On the other hand, McGough might be able to use such an opportunity to add in special cameos, like, say, a special ambassadorial envoy from Madara, Lord Umezawa, and his trainee. Or maybe a few brief mentions of the beginnings of Keldon raids...

Either way, both McGough and King have a good handle on writing books with numerous main characters. And both are very good at describing wars. Grubb has the most appealing way of writing magic into the books. McGough seems somewhat indifferent to it in his Legends books, while King commits the near crime of seemingly forgetting that mana and land magic even exist. Seriously- reread the Onslaught Cycle. You'll find that Sash and Waistcoat caast spells jut by reading words in a book, and Karona is just odd.

Ultimately, I don't really care who writes it (so long as you don't include Haddad playing a cameo part, Moore), but the above combination is the one that would probably make the best series, in my eyes.

And I think that the series should be about five (at least four) books long.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Squeeman on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 01:49 am:

Oh, and that guy who wrote the two short stories about the Civic guildmage was pretty good.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Evil Moderator (Eidtelnvil) on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 07:24 pm:

Richard Lee Byers. And while we're on the subject of anthology writers, I would jump at the chance to see Michael Ryan have a shot at a book. All of his shorts are extremely good.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message   By Squeeman on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 08:59 pm:

Which ones did he write?

I liked that story about the dwarf, the orc, the goblin, and the serpent generator (though I am aware that others don't agree). I think he should have a shot at a book, if only to see if he can fill up three hundred pages with sub-Jim
Carreyian wit (which I am willing to stoop to laughing at).